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Hippies Say WiFi Network Is Harming Their ChakrasComments:432
Posted by
samzenpus
on Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:58 AM
from the what's-with-all-the-negative-waves dept.
from the what's-with-all-the-negative-waves dept.
Anti-Globalism writes "A group of hippies is complaining that a recently installed WiFi mesh network in the UK village of Glastonbury is causing health problems. To combat the signals from the Wi-Fi hotspots, the hippies have placed orgone generators around the antennae." Although there have been many studies that show no correlation between WiFi and health issues the hippies say, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
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Shut up! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Shut up! (Score:5, Funny)
"I can. But that's because I'm not a penniless hippie." /futurama
"Orgone Generators" (Score:5, Informative)
One man has even begun making orgone generators, which use crystals, semi-precious stones and gold to purportedly put out positive energy to combat the negative vibes flooding the town from the Wi-Fi base stations.
Elsewhere: [orgonegenerators.ca]
Orgone Generators change negative energy from microwaves, TV's, cell phones, computers, fluorescent lighting, automotive wiring, large electrical structures, high voltage lines and step-down electrical transformers, etc. into pure or positive life energy.
Positive Orgone is also known as Chi(China), Prana(India), and Ki(Japan).
The basic and simplified theory of how the orgone devices work is that the negative energy is attracted into the device by the organic component and then it gets bounced back and forth between the resin and suspended metal particles. Crystalline structures within the mix cause the energy to get organized and re-radiated as a positive, clean energy.
Oh yes, these sound like reasonable people.
Re:"Orgone Generators" (Score:4, Insightful)
FTFA:
One man has even begun making orgone generators, which use crystals, semi-precious stones and gold to purportedly put out positive energy to combat the negative vibes flooding the town from the Wi-Fi base stations.
I am just sitting here wondering how long it is going to take someone to just pinch them all... surely there would have to be at least a few bucks in gold there. If not, it'd still be fun to pinch them and place them all around the town in people's gardens, on shop roofs, etc.
Re:"Orgone Generators" (Score:5, Funny)
nah, I don't want to pinch them to wake them up... I want to give them a bloody good bitch slapping and tell them to get a job
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Martin Gardner's essay "Wilhelm Reich and the Orgone" is highly recommended reading on the topic (as is, well, pretty much anything he writes debunking pseudoscience).
Re:"Orgone Generators" (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
There is a strong connection between LSD and BSD. (and yeah, I've abused both.)
Re:"Orgone Generators" (Score:5, Funny)
I have to call shenanigans on the whole "negative energy" thing.
For one example, take a microwave oven. You put something in, turn it on, and the item cooks. That is an exhibit of POSITIVE energy flow. If you put a hippie in the microwave, the magnetron emissions does not suck the life energy out of the hippie, the hippie's life energy is released from its oppressive corporeal representation into the next higher plane. Ergo, another positive energy transfer! Come on, hippies... we are talking technology-assisted ascension!
And TVs, radios, etc. POSITIVE energy. In all cases we are using technology to enhance nature, similarly to the way hippies use crystals, precious metals, and *ahem* herbs to enhance nature.
Or at least that is how it works in my head.
--
Free Waterfall, Jr.: "We taught a lion to eat tofu!"
Lion, sickly and emaciated: *cough* *cough*
--
Lur: "Ohhhh, there must've been something bad in the hippie I ate..." [/futurama]
Re:"Orgone Generators" (Score:5, Funny)
All energies that take wave form are positive.
And then, they're negative.
And then, they're positive.
And then, they're negative.
And then, they're positive.
And then, they're negative.
And then, they're positive.
And then, they're negative.
And then, they're positive.
...
Some make these transformations wicked fast.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Seriously weird folks.
If you want to read more about "Orgone" and the crackpot that came up with it, look up Wilhelm Reich.
I have a wireless router under my bed, near the head end. Strange how I'm not suffering from the "illnesses" these idiots are claiming.
Re:"Orgone Generators" (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sure that before they made those claims, they consulted all the sages they could find in yellow pages.
No way man, experts and sages have all been paid off by Big WiFi.
Incidentally, does anyone else find it ironic when hippies loudly proclaim that pot is harmless and then show signs of serious paranoia when they explain that it is only illegal because of some complicated conspiracy?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Second, it doesn't require refrigeration to cure pork into ham. Traditionally preservation is the reason for curing meat in
Re:"Orgone Generators" (Score:5, Informative)
Microwaves aren't new. There's a good deal of microwaves floating around the universe (including at ground level on Earth) from natural sources. And there have been both mobile and fixed location broadcast microwaves in use for decades, at much higher power levels than WiFi installations. Not to mention all the nuisance sources of microwaves like, you know, microwave ovens. A typical household microwave puts out almost 1 kW -- even if you assume 99% of that is contained in the appliance, it's still 10 times more power <I>leaking</i> than a 6dbi omnidirectional WiFi transmitter (legally) intentionally emits.
Moreover, we actually <i>have</I> studied the interaction of microwaves with the human body. First, there's about a 10 dB reflection loss at the human-air boundary at WiFi frequencies, and attenuation inside the body is about 2 dB/cm. Therefore there is very little interaction beyond the first couple of centimeters, assuming the signal is strong enough to overcome the reflection losses in the first place. And guess what those microwaves do when you interact with them -- I know it's tricky, because science hasn't caught up with the human body -- but studies suggest that a typical interaction involves energy transfer via polarization in molecules with a strong dipole moment. Which, you know, is a lot like what happens to the flesh-like materials you might try to heat with a microwave oven.
So in summary, you can sense microwave fields. If they are sufficiently strong, you should be able to detect them by the heat generated when you absorb the EM energy. Not that you'd be able to distinguish microwaves from infrared radiation, or from simple conduction, but you could detect the presence of an energy source.
Also you example of "in the past, some people didn't believe new, poorly understood science, but most people believe what is now well-established science" doesn't really support the idea you're trying to defend -- that the totally invented beliefs of hippies might be true in spite of science. It's possible for totally invented beliefs to be true -- even a broken clock is right twice a day -- but the "in spite of science" part makes it hard to take them (or you) seriously.
Million-dollar idea for somebody (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Buy a couple hundred acres in the National Radio Quiet Zone [nrao.edu] and build a resort/spa/retirement community for all the well-heeled electromagnetophobes.
2. Quietly buy up as much of the valley as you can, then support campaigns to get Blue Cross and Medicare to cover electromagnetic hypersensitivity [wikipedia.org].
3. Profit.
I'd do it, but I don't believe I could live with myself. Especially if I had to give up ubiquitous broadband.
Re:Million-dollar idea for somebody (Score:5, Informative)
Commant (Score:4, Funny)
FiWi connectians doesn't mess up your ability to think, you knough.
Residents, not hippies (Score:5, Interesting)
It is not a bunch of hippies doing the complaining, it is the residents. They have little use for the WiFi, which has been used 422 times in 6 months. I suspect the locals know exactly what they want. Maintaining jobs and a way of life, which draws on 5000 years of hocus pocus. Orgone generators are right in there as a mix of crystals and gold and romanticism.
As for the headaches? Quite genuine reporting I'd say. My father told me that a satellite receiving station near where he worked was found to generate a wide mix of ills in the 3 months following its official opening. This was not published because it would have embarrassed the Minister. Due to a cock-up in parts supply, they faked the opening and it sat idle but impressive whilst headaches abounded.
Headaches occur, and people want causes assigned. It's a matter of opinion whether it is better to blame an aerial or a spell cast by a witch. Just so long as the majority have a good laugh in the pub in the off-season. Witchcraft is a bit like Royalty. A good historical reason for people to kill each other, but really just a useful source of tourist dollars these days.
See "Bad science" (Score:5, Informative)
The local paper (Fosse Way) published this story without the slightest critical analysis whatsoever. As someone who has worked on, inter alia, the EMC Directive, I wrote to them asking whether the person complaining of headaches had taken part in a blind test. Perhaps needless to say, the letter has not been published and indeed I've had no acknowledgement of it.
BTW, they do not have a "way of life which draws on 5000 years of hocus pocus". The Glastonbury thing dates back to no more than the 19th century: it's as fake as Druidism in Wales. Glastonbury is just a small town in Somerset that used to make its money from the leather industry till it went bust under Thatcher. Now it's a retirement suburb, the most Conservative part of the district. Currently a few protestors are trying to stop the demolition of the old factory buildings to put up an industrial estate - the old buildings cannot be brought up to modern standards and are a complete eyesore.
Why do I complain about this? Because I live in the part of Somerset that is a net contributor of taxes to keep the residents of Glastonbury from having to have industry and jobs, that's why.
Re:See "Bad science" (Score:4, Interesting)
As religions go its not that bad. Nobody calls for death to those who use the wrong type of crystal or prefers herbalism to energy fields.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, it's a bit worse than people simply attributing existing ills to some piece of technology. It would seem that people, if they think something will make them ill, can indeed make themselves ill to some degree, or at least be convinced that they are ill (which from their perspective, is much the same thing - or even worse, as real cures won't work on the latter). It's the reason that a lot of the superstitious stuff can actually seem to work at times, and why it's quite important not only to combat such
ob: south park quote (Score:5, Funny)
hippies... hippies... they say they want to save the world, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
hippies... hippies... they say they want to save the world, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.
Compared with Geeks who drink black coffee and smell bad.
What about the sun? (Score:4, Insightful)
Those hippies are going to be royally fucked when they realise the huge ball of incandescent gas at the middle of our solar system is the largest electromagnetic transmitter within several billion miles. How are they going to fix THAT one?
No known "Health issues" (Score:4, Insightful)
something not being known yet doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
Too much pot? (Score:5, Interesting)
"headaches, dizziness, nausea, severe tiredness, brain fog, disorientation and loss of appetite, loss of balance, inability to concentrate, loss of creativity"
Sounds like they have all the symptoms of smoking way too much pot.
Re:That's odd... (Score:4, Funny)
Damn hippies.
*I'M* a hippie, you insensitive clod!
THOSE hippies, however, are morons.
Re:That's odd... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're a moron, you're not really a hippie. You're just a moron who acts like a hippie.
You should know that! I'm starting to wonder if you should turn in your Hippie card and "tea set." ;^)
Re:That's odd... (Score:5, Insightful)
These hippies apparantly would much rather not live with the pollutants they are absorbing, but they have no reasonable recourse.
Considering how long radio, TV, cell phones, and other RF sources have been pumping out just as much juice through their bodies/karma/astral-selves, I'm finding it hard to be sympathetic for them. Shades of Don Quixote....
Re:That's odd... (Score:5, Insightful)
True. I have known a lot of hippies who love TV, radio, and even cell phones. So what is so oppressive about WiFi versus the rest of this?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It's NEW to their environment, so they respond with the basic and common human idiocy of fear of the unfamiliar or unknown.
Then again, their brains are probably so fried they wouldn't know reason and sense if they fell over it.
Re:That's odd... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's called a Faraday cage [wikipedia.org], you could probably get one made in the shape of a pyramid and kill too birds with one stone.
"If I have to listen to people complain about second hand smoke so much that I feel like a goddamned leppar then why can't I complain even the least little bit about electromagnetic radiation?"
You can complain all you like, just don't expect anyone to listen until you have robust scientific evidence like the second hand smoker's do. I'm also a smoker and I'm willing to act reasonably by smoking outside. However when a second-hand smoker waves their face while walking past a leppar colony on a smog filled street I feel justified in telling them to wear a gas mask if they don't like it.
Same deal for EM radition, either put up the evidence or STFU and let me use my mobile.
Disclaimer: I saw Woodstock on the news when I was 8-9yo, had hair down to my arse in the 70's. The Hippie ideal of maximum freedom and minimum harm is still very appealing to me. I'm simply unwilling to ignore human nature and throw out the philosophy of scientific skepticisim. Unlike any "other way of thinking" it is demonstratably usefull to me beyond a healthy body and control of my emotional state (not that I have either:). One of scientific skepticisim's prime uses is to judge claims from others against what you "know" (eg: does EM radiation harm anyone?).
Like Yoga in wich the rituals can be useful for a healthy mind/body, scientific skepticisim is also a usefull skill that can be taught, of course you then have to work at it for a while before you see the benifits. The hardest part of that "work" for a good skeptic is accepting that you cannot "know" anything but you can have scientific evidence [google.com.au] that goes beyond reasonable doubt.
Re:That's odd... (Score:4, Interesting)
Not really. Hippies are known to sit inside pyramids or yurts while realigning their chakras or whatever it is they do. Wire your Faraday cage into that so that they can meditate on an RF-free zone.
Of course there will be no observable phenomena from being inside or outside the grid so selling them a faraday cage that doesn't in fact block cell phone radiation would not be discovered any time soon.
Well, apart from the fact that the hippie's mobile phone would show 'NO SIGNAL'.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
> (oh and there is obviously a difference between Christians and hippies, for starters the fact that Christians actually have a purpose and generally act very sensibly)
Really ?? You must know better quality Christians and lower quality hippies than I do. Or, maybe you don't actually know any hippies, you just assume that the stereotypes from South Park etc are reasonably accurate.
Re:That's odd... (Score:4, Informative)
No it doesn't; chain link fences and chicken wire are both smaller than that.
No more so than hippies, really. Christians just have more social inertia.
Re:That's odd... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yet the vast majority of Western legal systems are based on Christian principles.
This is really not true. Stealing is considered wrong in both non-christian and christian societies, so having laws against stealing is not evidence of a specifically christian legal system. Similarly murder, adultery, etc.
This is the broken argument that religious apologists always trot out. The fact is that religious people are no more likely to be moral than others (and probably quite likely to be less moral - see next paragraph). People share common moral values whether they are christian or not.
On the down side however, christians are responsible for numerous and well documented heinous atrocities specifically due to their religion (crusades, inquisition, witch burning, annihilation of heretics, etc.).
On balance, christianity has been a net cause of significant evil in the world. For more detail see Dawkins The God Delusion
Re:That's odd... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:That's odd... (Score:4, Funny)
> Christians actually have a purpose
Here's someone who didn't hear about the closing of the Coliseum...
Love, Nero. ;-)
Re:Very sensitive people? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Very sensitive people? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the cool thing about science - nobody cares whether you believe it.
Try googling for 'rf double-blind' or if you'd like an actual journal article, here [nih.gov]
In short, there was no correlation.
Re:Very sensitive people? (Score:5, Insightful)
Assuming for a moment it's true; are you aware of the inverse-square law?
Get this, working on an antenna broadcasting at several hundred thousand watts is worse than sitting 2ft from a 1 watt (at most) transmitter...
Re:Very sensitive people? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes I am aware of the inverse square law. My point was that if the hippies really suffer from what they claim, they must be very sensitive to electromagnetic radiation in the microwave range because WiFi usually transmits using even less power than a mobile phone. So if they use mobile phones but say they suffer from the WiFi radiation they're likely to be affected by somethning else. I should have written it down more clearly though.
Re:Very sensitive people? (Score:4, Funny)
Er, how about us hippie broadcast engineers? I know not to climb a FM tower while it is live and I know not to touch an AM tower and the ground at the same time (you have to jump to the tower to change the light blubs :)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Having said that, wifi (radio frequency radiation) has nothing to do with this kind of high power directed microwave radiation and is completely harmless - just don't get them confused.
Re: (Score:3)
Cite? I've heard these sea stories for decades. The only factual reports of injuries that I've read involve RF burns and increases in rates of cataracts.
Re:Yeah ... (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem with wifi health scares is the same as with nuclear health scares. Regardless of whether the pro-wifi and pro-nuclear groups are right or wrong, they are terrible at public relations. In both cases, the default response to public health concern is a derisory snort and the tendency to talk down to the people raising the concern as though they are idiots. People who do not work as engineers or biologists are not idiots, as you find out when you have to employ said people for more money than you earn to fix your plumbing or do your accounts. They are just not privy to the same understanding of the relevant issue as you are.
The same problem occurred big time in the UK with the MMR injections. The state talked down to concerned parents and treated them like idiots, the net result of which was to make them even more determined that there must be a scandal and a cover-up. Talk sensibly about the health risks of wifi (such that they exist) and show how such things have been tested independently and shown to be of no concern, and you will win-out. Laughing at anyone who raises concerns may make geeks feel smug, but it's a losing strategy and always will be.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Don't insult The Onion by comparing them Fox news. The Onion is America's finest news source.
Re:Ironic (Score:4, Informative)
The UK is being cited as the cause of the delay in eradicating Measles from Earth because a medical quack decided that he would fake evidence that the triple MMR vaccination caused autism. The gutter press got hold of it and screamed "save the children" thereby convincing concerned parents everywhere to not vaccinate their children. I'm hoping a few of them will die of measles in order to help sharpen up peoples discrimination between nutjobs and science. I'm perfectly happy for the people of Glastonbury to do without the 21st century but I strongly object to their invocation of psudo science and trickery to condemn the rest of us to their unenlightened state. These people are wrong and should be told so in VERY large letters.
Re:Ironic (Score:4, Insightful)
I go to college, I'm used to pseudo science and trickery. It seems every professor I've had the last two semesters was bent on convincing the class that far left ideology is correct, and the best way to prove this was by assigning reading completely devoid of fact and unrelated to class.
With that in mind, this story and that doctor don't surprise me at all, and go to the root of the problem. It ask questions I am still trying to answer: How do people hold a philosophical belief yet purposefully fake evidence to support their claim and yet not question the claim itself? If the only evidence supporting their claim is false information created by them yet is used by them to support it how do they not question their belief structure?
I was assigned a book to read in my sociology class that was little more then subjective rhetoric and purposely set up situations to justify policy decisions. The authors concern was the good of society. What good could come from acting on false information? Information that more objective studies in my economics class had proven to be completely false through rigorous documentation. If goal is helping society and beliefs are shown to not coincide with that goal, why do people chose their beliefs over their goal?
The goal of the doctor was probably to help people and he probably believed vaccines caused autism so he faked information that will more likely hurt people. His goal of helping people has failed miserably.
Same with these "hippies." Is it just human nature to value opinion over fact? How can we address this problem?