Microsoft Poland Photoshops Black Guy To White One 964
wanted writes "If you look at Microsoft's Poland business solutions Web site, you will probably not notice anything odd about the main picture. However, when you compare it with the original English version, you can see that someone decided that showing black people in Poland is probably not going to be convincing to business. They just Photoshopped the head of a white guy in for the black one, in an amateurish way, leaving his hand unchanged. (Here's a mirror in case something should happen to the original.)" We noted a few months back that the city of Toronto had done something similar.
Know your market. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Know your market. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Know your market. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Know your market. (Score:3, Insightful)
What you seem to be saying, is that targeting a specific market is somehow racist. If your market lives in a city of a million, and the black population is around 15, putting black faces in your advert isn't going to make sales. It will only make your advert look exotic, at best.
As I recall, Poland didn't have a civil war to free the slaves. Nor were a lot of Africans likely to immigrate to Poland during the days of the Soviet. Prior to the Soviet, Poland was more in the business of exporting people, rather than importing. Like, my great grandparents, for instance.
Before I leave, I've just got to say, fuck politically correct. It's from the soviet union, and has no business in the free world. Fuck politically correct again, and again, you communist bastards!
What about the Asian guy? (Score:4, Insightful)
If they Photoshopped in a white guy over the black guy, what about the Asian guy? I mean, how likely are you to see a Korean guy walking the streets of Poland? ( Or maybe I just don't know the streets of Poland).
Re:Know your market. (Score:3, Insightful)
writing from Argentina here.
Here we don't have many black people (black as in african, but there are dark-skinned people). So it's weird here to see an ad in which a black guy is just "sitting there". you don't see that in the office. the ad is supposed to be something people can relate to, and if you're not used to seeing black people, you find it weird.
should microsoft make a different ad, featuring white people, for poland? probably. should they photoshop-out the black guy? that's pretty lame really.
Re:Know your market. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's just the same (Score:2, Insightful)
Both pictures are just the result of what a marketing department researched out that sells.
The black man in the US pictures DOES NOT mean that they're not racist, not at all. I'm not saying that they are racist either. He's there because he can help to sell more.
That's it.
We all have seen those TV adds, that, no matter what is being sold, show a Latin, an Asian and a black child just to appear that they have evolved into a society when stupid racism times are long gone.
Races are just resources to sell, from a marketing point of view.
Just in case I'm Latin and yes, I took already my diazepam pill ten minutes ago.
Re:Know your market. (Score:2, Insightful)
Then why'd they leave the asian guy in there? There a lot more asians in poland than blacks?
Re:Know your market. (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking for myself, as a New Zealander, when I see African-looking people as the carefully-selected diverse-skin-tone group for a posed ad -- as opposed to Pacific Island or Asian, which are the faces we really see here -- it automatically makes me think "American". It's roughly the same effect as having people wearing cowboy hats and speaking in a twang.
And that's generally an instant negative effect. It means you're saying "1. We're not a local company. 2. We're owned by some big American corporation you've never heard of who's never heard of you. 3. We're either too out of touch or too lazy to produce localised ad cop. 4. We're probably not going to localise any other resources for you, just design a one-size-fits-all media set in Texas and print 'em in China. 5. We're not going to listen to anything you have to say or care what your market segment thinks. 7. But we did run our media buy past our New York-based sensitivity screening group, so yay diversity!"
Re:Know your market. (Score:5, Insightful)
There are just not so many black people in Poland.
Mod parent up. People in Central Europe don't give a shit about USian prejudices. We have our own.
Do you hate gypsies?
Re:Even Stranger...... (Score:5, Insightful)
What surprises me is that the black guy had to go, while the asian is alright.
They couldn't just take a new fucking picture with Polish people on it, now could they?
Re:Reality (Score:4, Insightful)
That has nothing to do with the digital world, it just got easier. Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Che and Castro all had former "friends" who happened to fall out of grace removed from pictures in their times. But of course this is going back much more, way before the availability of photography. Media was never and will never be reliable in general.
And I would argue that using raw data to is the only reliable way to inform yourself, anything that has been selected, annotated or edited is the problem, bringing over a certain point of view which is not necessarily neutral. Of course, this will seldom be possible because you dont' have access to that raw data.
Who really cares? (Score:1, Insightful)
The biggest question is.
Who gets offended by these marketing tricks?
Is it whites, blacks, or the target market?
In thi s example the black guy was replaced, in the previous example the white guy was replaced. Both times I couldn't care less.
Some people get so offended if there is the slightest bit of "racial" incorrectness. Either this or they want to take a stand on something, anything, and this is the most convenient, sensitive issue they can find.
Frankly I am offended most by advertising in general. Specifically those that try to promote something that is unrealistic. ie: Weight loss PILLS, Drug companies telling everyone they have restless leg syndrome or the like. Who cares that the actors in an ad get swapped for another. Again these are paid actors/models. The photo is the property of the ad company or product's company and they are free to do with it what they want. There is nothing politically incorrect about the swap.
"Stand up" for real issues or take the easy route and pop an Enzyte.
Knowing how PC the US is these days... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dark Tan? (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft Poland doesn't like black people.
That's not necessarily true. In Central Europe, nationalism is alive and well (actually increasing due to the perceived cultural threat from the EU), and a picture with three different skin colors for three people will not be interpreted as affirmative action, but unwanted external cultural influence.
Particularly the black guy, as you don't expect to see black people every day.
In Hungary, at least, the original picture would cause outrage from the far-right and a measurable decrease in sales.
Re:Dark Tan? (Score:5, Insightful)
or to paraphrase, "market to your demographic". If our customer base is white, show white people in the advertising.
I've noticed that billboards in black neighbors show blacks. In Hispanic neighborhoods, they show Hispanics. etc, etc, etc.
This was just a poor attempt at getting something out the door to fit the job, rather than doing another shoot with fresh models.
Re:Know your market. (Score:5, Insightful)
it automatically makes me think "American".
Pretty much any picture where obviously boring and unrealistically diverse people are fakely smiling for no apparent reason whilst wearing pastel coloured sweaters or light gray suits, it screams "american" to me. The second feeling I get is nausea from the candy-coated overdose of political correctness. Can anybody here identify with any of the people on that Microsoft photo?
Re:Know your market. (Score:1, Insightful)
I think its highly offensive you Americans do not have Australian Aboriginals in all your movies, TV shows and advertisements. Are images of Australian Aboriginals so offensive to your delicate American sensibilities? Why? Even if there's not a single Australian Aboriginal in all of the USA, why should it be a problem?
If you'd care to offer one, I'd like to hear your explanation for not depicting a person of Australian Aboriginal descent in any advertisement or show that doesn't fundamentally boil down to racism.
Go Australia! (Score:4, Insightful)
Many Polish peoples are also racists.
By a strict definition, I'm also racist. Australians that I have encountered (without exception) in international airports have been unfailingly polite, helpful and friendly. Clearly a superior group of people.
My next international vacation is definitely going to be in Australia.
Re:Just like MSNBC: changing black people to white (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Know your market. (Score:3, Insightful)
Many Polish people may indeed be ... anti-semites ... but racists?
What the hell are you talking about?
Re:Knowing how PC the US is these days... (Score:3, Insightful)
Take a look at the windowsill to the right of each guy's head.
I think it puts to rest any speculation on which photo was the original, if in fact either model was ever actually there.
Re:Just like MSNBC: changing black people to white (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Even Stranger...... (Score:2, Insightful)
it wasn't until years later that I really understood that there was anything wrong about the things I had said.
Translation: they finally brainwashed you. People are not equal, never were, and never will be, no matter how hard you try to believe it. But now we need a $8 million study to acknowledge the fact that men and women think differently.
Of course kids will joke at each others' expense: you're fat, she's blonde, he's black. That's all perfectly normal. The fact that people think merely making a nigger joke is racist means things are seriously fucked up. Quoting Troy: "It's not an insult to say a dead man - is dead."
Racism is when you hate those who are different for no logical reason, not merely talk about it casually and be fine with it. Also, most people here accept evolution for a fact, yet deny that it applies to humans as well. Ever heard the term "doublethink"?
Re:Know your market. (Score:1, Insightful)
Ah, the "I'm not racist, because they deserve it" card. Well played, sir.
Re:Even Stranger...... (Score:5, Insightful)
Racism is when you hate those who are different for no logical reason, not merely talk about it casually and be fine with it.
Uh, no. Racism is not limited to "hate"- you can love people of one race over all others for no reason other than they are members of that race, that's still racism.
However, what is total bullshit about your analysis is that you think "talking casually about it and being fine with it" is not racism. Duh! You judge an entire group based on the attributes of a few individuals, but because you joke about it you aren't racist?
Dude, you've brainwashed yourself with your own rationalizations. You've embraced your own version of doublethink.
Re:Know your market. (Score:4, Insightful)
I have no desire to make excuses for the atrocities that Nazis committed in Poland during WW2. I was merely answering the question regarding expulsion of Germans from Poland, which did happen.
And it should also be noted that most of the Germans were expelled from areas that used to be part of Germany, not areas that Germany conquered from Poland during the war.
Also, atrocity is an atrocity. Driving people from their homes through threats (and sometimes more than just threats) of violence is an atrocity that should be condemned. Yes, Poland went through hell and back during the war. Does that make it OK for them to mistreat others in return? Is it OK to mistreat Germans because some other Germans did some shitty things?
After the Holocaust and WWII in general, you could make a decent argument that the German language should only live on in Hell.
No you could not. Or are you saying that we would be better off today, had Germans been exterminated during and after WW2? To me it seems that modern Germany makes a positive contribution to the World, a contribution that we would lack, had history taken the course you desire. And how exactly would the Allied been one bit better than Nazis were, had they started killing surrendered Germans in their millions?
Re:Knowing how PC the US is these days... (Score:3, Insightful)
(Warning: braod and probably abusive generalization below.)
It's always funny to see such photos on American products or ads in my part of Europe.
I remember the photo on the packaging of a computer mouse for children (from MS?): a boy with blue eyes and fair hair (in the center), a Chinese-looking girl, a black boy. This is an American mix, not a European one.
To be PC in the West-European market, you have to add an Arab- or Turkish-looking child. In France the typical hair is darker than in the States and blue eyes not very common, so the fair hair boy looks like one of our Dutch tourists. Our proportion of Asian people is low outside of Paris, and they are more Vietnamese than Chinese.
It depends heavily on the country (I suppose that you could say between the states inside the US.)
You cannot be PC and have the same photo for all countries. Unless that you want to appear like a soul-less company with American-style management.
BTW, the white person in many of such photos is always in the best position: on the mouse packaging, the boy was in the middle; in a recent ad for Visual Studio, the white young man is on the front and a Chinese-looking girl in the background; and in the photo from the article, the white woman is the only one active (she seems to be the boss). Neither do I see fat or disabled persons.
Re:Even Stranger...... (Score:3, Insightful)
However, what is total bullshit about your analysis is that you think "talking casually about it and being fine with it" is not racism. Duh! You judge an entire group based on the attributes of a few individuals, but because you joke about it you aren't racist?
Who said I judge anyone? I just don't shy away from the topic of skin color any more than from the topic of hair color. Consider the following joke: "How long is a gypsy girl a virgin? As long as she's stronger than her younger brother, runs faster than her older brother, and her dad's still in jail." If you can't tell it to your best friend, who happens to be a gypsy, and expect a good laugh from it over a beer at the pub, it's you who thinks way too much about ethnicity.
And here is what I consider a normal approach on the topic. [theregister.co.uk]
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
Um, no.
I am a white American living in Japan. I've been here about 10 years. People say racist things to me all the time. No, they don't mean any offense (usually), but that doesn't mean that I don't get offended. But I didn't used to.
When I first got here, little comments like "Oh! You can use chopsticks!" and "Wow, you can write kanji just like a Japanese person!" and "everyone move over; Klein needs space" (even though I am a very little guy), I thought it was quaint.
Now when those comments are made, it makes me feel excluded. As if I can never be treated normally, just because of my brown hair and blue eyes. The novelty has worn off.
A woman complemented me on my amazing Japanese a few months ago when I used a word I literally learned in my first semester of Japanese study. It bummed me out the rest of the day.
Then there's the "special" treatment you get from cops. And drunks.
Maybe at one point I thought minorities in the US were being oversensitive, but I think that after 10 years, I finally get it. Finding hateful racist people is getting harder every day, thank god, but when you're a minority, everything is just a little racist. You're treated differently, and it doesn't have anything to do with how you act or what you can or can't do. It just comes down to your physical attributes, and you can't change those. It just gets... tiring.
But I have it better than minorities in the US or Canada or wherever. This is not my home country. If I ever get totally sick of it (and I'll be honest, there are some things happening these days that are really making me question if it's worth being here--the cops' treatment is getting more special by the day), I can go home to the US where I'll be just another regular white guy. But a regular black guy in the US can't go anywhere. It's his home, and his life is one of being treated differently every single day. I understand why some people get touchy. I'm getting touchy, and I don't have it anywhere near as bad as black people in the US.
So there's the perspective of a white guy who has figured it out without any brainwashing.
Watch your mouth, people. It sucks when the main thing people remember about you is your race.
Re:Even Stranger...... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you can't tell it to your best friend, who happens to be a gypsy, and expect a good laugh from it over a beer at the pub, it's you who thinks way too much about ethnicity.
And if you personally can't replace "gypsy" with any ethnic group and find the joke just as funny then you are stereotyping. And puh-lease, "my best friend is a ..." is the first sentence in the book of how to be a racist.
It drives me nuts (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I'm sorry, but you are wrong. (Score:3, Insightful)
Watch your mouth, people. It sucks when the main thing people remember about you is your race.
Your experience is that of one belonging to a minority, and the response of most people to that minority. Would be the same if you were extremely handsome, if you had one arm, if you had a Lamborghini. Racism is more common than 'Lamborghinism', so it gets more attention. But it's the same phenomenon, and you cannot blame the average Joe for categorizing you according to the minority you represent.
Re:Dark Tan? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think the issue is whether you are able to connect to a black man. The picture for a Pole just screams "foreign", since the picture is nonrepresentative for a Polish office setting, just like a picture of for instance a family in an American style kitchen wouldn't communicate "family" but again "foreign". To get the feeling you are trying to communicate across you need to localize.
Re:Even Stranger...... (Score:4, Insightful)
No way! If you say things like "brainwashing" and "doublethink" that many times, naturally you're totally immune to such phenomena! How could I possibly be wrong?
Re:Dark Tan? (Score:3, Insightful)
Can't speak for Poland, but for the US... yes, it's realistic. I work for a company that does it's business over the internet and we've hired just about every 'race' you can imagine, and not because it's mandated. They were legitimately the right persons for the job. (Thank God we don't do any of the 'affirmative action' bullshit. It's just as racist as being racist is.)
A picture like the one from MS (but with younger people) would be spot-on in a meeting from any department in the company, including accounting, customer service, and tech.
As for Mission Impossible... An American in Russia would be pretty freaking obvious no matter what color his skin was. The facial features are just too different and noticeable.
Re:Dark Tan? (Score:0, Insightful)
Microsoft Poland doesn't like black people.Nobody likes black people, not even other black people.
Stupid marketroid smiles.. (Score:3, Insightful)
FUCK OFF WITH THAT ALREADY. Have you ever seen a scene like that in your office. Don't you normally have at most a neutral expression whilst you're concentrating. This ridiculous crap they try to feed us that using their product will make us taller, more attractive, whiten our teeth and let us get more sleep is just insulting. It's software. Sell it like bridges.
And HR can all fuck off too...
Re:Dark Tan? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not necessarily true. In Central Europe, nationalism is alive and well (actually increasing due to the perceived cultural threat from the EU), and a picture with three different skin colors for three people will not be interpreted as affirmative action, but unwanted external cultural influence.
Particularly the black guy, as you don't expect to see black people every day.
In Hungary, at least, the original picture would cause outrage from the far-right and a measurable decrease in sales.
In Holland we could not care less. Outrage over a picture like this? People in Hungary should get out more often. And i don't think that sales would suddenly drop because of this. The people who are dumb enough to get offended by this usually aren't the ones that make decisions that cause companies to buy the product or not.
Re:I'm sorry, but you are wrong. (Score:4, Insightful)
Lots, actually. "He's so well-spoken." You hear it applied to black people far more often than white people.
Re:Dark Tan? (Score:4, Insightful)
So there aren't any white males in your company?
Re:Even Stranger...... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Dark Tan? (Score:5, Insightful)
Outrage over a picture like this? People in Hungary should get out more often.
Well, that's kind of the point. You walk outside in Poland, and you don't see any black people.
What would be the reaction if this were marketed in Europe, and all three people were Asian? "Is this a Japanese board room?" Or if all three people were very dark-skinned black: "Where's this taking place? Kenya?" It's sort of the same thing.
Re:Even Stranger...... (Score:4, Insightful)
The fact that you're expressing the typical politically correct BS while the OP is expressing a minority opinion should tell you who has been brainwashed.
A joke wouldn't be a joke without an element of truth.
For instance, try to make a joke about Chinese people being "lazy" and see if you can elicit a laugh, even from an evil racist.
Making a racial, religious, or cultural based joke is not "judging" a group as a whole, merely making fun of a stereotype easily formed by inductive reasoning. No intelligent person would universalize such a statement to 100% of the subject group.
Are you REALLY offended by such things? Or are you just exhibiting the Pavlovian-style "feigned offense" response that you were conditioned to make by TV and higher education?
Re:I'm sorry, but you are wrong. (Score:2, Insightful)
... you cannot blame the average Joe for categorizing you according to the minority you represent.
Why not? There a plenty of times when "average Joe's" assumptions are just plain wrong.
Re:Dark Tan? (Score:3, Insightful)
Ok. So you need to "localize" the images. That makes a certain amount of sense. Except they didn't completely "localize" the image. They just got rid of the black guy while leaving the asian one behind. Also since we're going to the trouble of "localizing" then getting rid of the WASPy white faces would probably be a good idea too.
The "localized" version doesn't look terribly European either.
Re:Dark Tan? (Score:5, Insightful)
The original showed an Asian guy, a black guy and a white woman. How tediously politically correct. Also completely unrealistic for Poland. (Is it even realistic for the US?)
Is it even realistic for the US? Are you serious? I'm a black guy born on the African continent sitting in an office with a white woman and a jewish guy. In the office right next to mine there's an asian woman and a guy from the UK. Just walking down the hall yields people from every ethnicity. Sure there are obvious majorities and minorities, but it's almost impossible to snap a candid photo of this office and not have a pretty colorful palette of skin-tones. I'm not exactly a fan of political correctness, but I think this recent anti-PC movement smacks of a type of reactionary bigotry I'm even less comfortable with (probably because it always seems to be coming from the same 'demographic' of people).
The issue isn't that they felt having white guys in their ad would be more appropriate for their intended audience, the issue is that they whitewashed a black guy out of an existing image (poorly), suggesting that the black guy would be unacceptable (but the asian and woman were fine?). If they found the orriginal image inappropriate, then find, buy, or cast and shoot another photo that more suits your demographic. Slapping a black guy in white face is just stupid (look at the results), and I can't see how it's not insulting, if to no one else but your intended audience; suggesting they can't handle the sight of a black guy.
Re:No African-Americans in Poland doncha know (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd doubt that textbook was written in 1650 - the wording would be modern.
At a guess, the original wording for that census would have been "Negro" or similar.