Bad PC Sales Staff Exposed 650
Barence writes "An undercover investigation has revealed how Dell's online sales staff take liberties with the truth when trying to sell customers new PCs. One member of staff told an undercover reporter that he would need a PC with a good graphics card to download digital photos. Another, who was more incompetent than devious, was asked how many photos could be stored on a 250GB hard disk. 'Its[sic] on average 2 MB then 1024 MB * 2,' came the bewildering reply. Meanwhile, a sales assistant at supermarket Tesco told the reporter that netbooks got their name because 'a Japanese man on a plane fell asleep with a laptop on his thighs and was horribly burned, so the industry has dropped the name laptop.'"
Is this news? (Score:5, Insightful)
How many photos fit on a 500GB HD? (Score:2, Insightful)
Inf.
Reason: The type of people who have to talk to a sales person, will run windows in a single partition, and will have to reformat before filling their drive.
Storage really is cheap these days.
The only person dumber than a computer salesperson (Score:5, Insightful)
While we, computer elites can laugh, or cry, at some of the stupid, stupid things that come out of the mouths of the sales drones - for a lot of people they are the experts. Most people neither know nor care about computers. They just want to GET STUFF DONE. They don't know or care about Gigahertz or Terabytes: just as they don't know or care about the kilo-Watt rating of their electric kettle: it's merely an appliance - it works or it doesn't.
Maybe the IT industry should look inwards on itself and consider how we've failed to educate the public about the technology we make them use. Even worse, maybe we should reflect on how we've turned a subject that has such a huge potential for good, into a nerdy hell: full of jargon, technobabble and misinformation. To the point where the sales-staff don't even know when they're talking rubbish.
What's YOUR Job's Main Goal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sales people's job is to move widgets. Sell more widgets == more take-home pay.
-They aren't paid to be factual.
-They aren't paid to keep the best interests of the consumer in mind.
-The job, as designed, requires no training. In fact it rewards the absence of training.
This is the same all over. Laptops, packaged investments, American health insurance. Doesn't matter.
I think the computer guys know too (Score:3, Insightful)
I think at least some of the computer salesmen know too. Sorry.
I'm sorry, but when I witness some computer store guy tell an old geezer that he _needs_ the latest top-end NVidia card to watch digital photos of his grandchildren, 'cause photos are video stuff and and a bigger video card is better for that, right?... or that buying the latest Intel CPU makes their Internet go faster... I know Hanlon's Razor, "never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", but it still trips my suspension of disbelief big time. Especially when I can have a more technical talk with that sales guy afterwards and see that, well, he may not be IBM research labs material, but he's not exactly the kind who thinks that Megaherz is what happens when you stick your fingers in the PSU either.
Re:What's the Difference Between a Computer Salesm (Score:5, Insightful)
Completely agreed. The staff at Best Buy or whatever other brick and mortar store carries computers is so completely clueless that it's comical. Why should online vendors be much different?.
I think what's worse is when the sales person is actually good and can persuade someone into buying a product they don't need. I have to go to computer stores with my Dad when he tries to buy something simple like an ethernet cable or a power strip or he'll come home with a Cisco switch and an APC rackmount battery backup.
Fake it 'till you make it (Score:5, Insightful)
There are some very knowledgeable salesmen out there. Unfortunately, they are the minority. That's because being knowledgeable is not a particularly well-rewarded attribute. Take a look at the following:
1) When you walk into Best Buy or call Dell, you've already committed yourself: you are pretty much ready to buy, or you wouldn't be there.
2) Salesmen are paid on commission. The more you spend, the more they make.
3) Most people can't define the difference between a megabyte and a megahertz.
4) If you leave without buying, the salesman will lose the commission, even if you buy later based on their advice.
Put it all together, and you have a situation where salespeople are highly motivated to spout whatever bullshit they can concoct to get you to buy the more expensive doohickey RIGHT NOW, as long as they can get you to buy it. Since people typically judge the truthfullness of other people based on the confidence that they seem to have in what they are saying, you end up with a pack of know-nothing liars who make any kind of bullshit... with confidence.
It's really not much different than the techno-babble bullshiz that they say on Star Trek - the words are unimportant, but it's important that it sound real. And since any computer that anybody buys can do pretty much whatever they need, the people are typically content with the scenario because they got something that actually does what they need. They will tend to accept this as evidence that their salesman was telling the truth in the first place.
It's a sad, sad situation, and one that's not likely to improve any time soon.
same thing different field (Score:5, Insightful)
Computers are like most other reasonably complex products - you've got to do your homework and never, ever trust that the salesperson knows what they are talking about. Because most don't, whether we're talking mountain bikes or personal computers.
Re:What's the Difference Between a Computer Salesm (Score:5, Insightful)
A knowledgeable computer person can probably find a better job. There's not so many other jobs for people who know about cell phone handsets...
Re:The only person dumber than a computer salesper (Score:3, Insightful)
Thing is, we don't expect people to be able to walk in off the street and adjust a carburetor. We demand training, and credentials and certificates before we let people monkey around with car electricals. But somehow, somehow it's ok to hire clueless people to maintain and service the PCs that people's livelihoods may depend on. Sure, they may not -die- if you do a bad job, but you can end up wasting thousands of their dollars and still not fix the problem.
We don't need to educate people about computers - we need to educate people about the value of professional IT training and certification.
No, you don't have to be a mechanic to sell a car; but that's only because cars come as a prefabricated system where your only choices are what colour and what model of CD player to put in. If you were selling cars assembled from any number of subsystems you -would- need to be a mechanic to offer useful advice.
computer salesmen vs customers (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is this news? (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't make stupid uninformed assumptions about my accepting anything.
Re:The only person dumber than a computer salesper (Score:5, Insightful)
maybe we should reflect on how we've turned a subject that has such a huge potential for good, into a nerdy hell: full of jargon, technobabble and misinformation.
Right. Because fields like medicine, law, automotive repair, publishing, fashion, cooking, broadcast, engineering, carpentry, literature, mathematics, philosophy, psychology, politics, banking, insurance, etc. don't have any jargon, technobabble, or misinformation.
Every field has specialized language.
You either learn enough of the specialized language to make sure you aren't being taken for a ride, or you trust that the folks you're dealing with aren't going to abuse their position of power.
The primary difference is that many people don't feel the need to educate themselves in any way when it comes to computers. Many people seem almost proud of their ignorance. They'll happily declare that they don't know anything about computers.
Sure, they just want to get stuff done. So do I, when I get in my car and drive to the grocery store. But it's still a news story when the local repair shop is found to be lying to its customers and charging people for repairs they don't need.
That's not what I had in mind (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, I was more like thinking small "mom and pop" shops, where people can still tell their arse from their elbow. They may not have some deep knowledge of either, but at least know what goes on the toilet when you need to take a dump. Or back to computers, to have read some benchmark site when they bought their own graphics card.
Basically: they may not be gurus, but they know enough to know when they're lying to a customer. And that's pretty much what I'm charging them with. Being conmen on a commision, and knowing they're conmen.
And by your friend's description, it sounds like your friend and his co-workers knew when they're lying to a customer too. Your friend quit because he couldn't stand doing it, at least some of his co-workers didn't. That's how you separate those with morals from those without.
But unfortunately the system is set up to reward the latter, not the former.
Re:wtf? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it's not a real "news" story. But this is Slashdot, and the mods knew that by posting that, it would become nice bait for Slashdotters to share their stories about crappy salespeople and such, so they wanted to drive more people to the site to drive more ad impressions and thereby make them more money,... Basically, the mods are motivated the same way that salespeople are motivated, but just use different techniques. That's also why I'm probably going to get modded "-1 Troll" for this,... ;-)
HDMI (Score:3, Insightful)
The guy saying that you need a good graphics card to download pictures is like going to Best Buy and the guy says that you'll get a better picture with the gold plated $200 HDMI cable.
Re:wtf? (Score:1, Insightful)
Just like every pretend-"I'm so getting downmodded for this" poster just does it to get mod points?
Yes, but it's still betrayal of trust (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, I still say that a lot of them know at least enough to know they're lying, but even that's beside the point. They should at least know they're making buzzwords up, and that it _is_ lying to a customer.
What makes it odious in my eyes is that they essentially abuse those people's trust. We may argue about how smart it is to trust the guy getting a commission to do a fair analysis of your problem, but that's essentially what those customers are doing. Some old geezer comes and explains it all to the nice sales guy, not because he just wants to give the "I'm ripe for a con job" signals loud and clear, but because they trust that they'll be given a genuine solution to their problem. Because that's how the rest of society works.
If I go to a dentist with a cavity, I expect him to tell me what's the best course of action for that problem -- e.g., just fill the hole -- not to smooth talk me into pulling the tooth out and replacing it with an expensive implant. Sure, the implant would make him more money, but the underlying expectation is that he'll solve _my_ problem not his own mortgage problem.
If I hop in a cab and ask the guy to take me to the main railway station, I expect him to take either the shortest or the fastest route, or ask which of them. I do not expect him to just run in circles for more money, although he's on a commission too.
If I call a plumber for a leaking pipe, I expect him to do essentially the minimum that solves that problem, not take it as an opportunity to invent reasons why he should replace the piping in the whole house. And if he does come up with reasons why I should replace all of it -- e.g., because it's an old house and it's lead pipes -- I expect those to be real, honest-to-FSM reasons, not made up buzzwords that just have to sound real to make a sale.
Etc.
And if your dentist, or your cabbie, or plumber, or accountant, or lawyer, took it as just an opportunity to milk the last cent they can out of you with invented buzzwords, probably most people would take them to court. Because it _is_ blatant fraud and betrayal of trust.
But somehow when a computer sales clerk does it, nah, that's ok. Sorry, it looks the same to me.
Re:The only person dumber than a computer salesper (Score:2, Insightful)
Your analogy doesn't really work. How many people, for example, go to the doctor and expect to be told about things like cytokine storms or acetylsalicylic acid? To most people, these terms are just as meaningless as gigahertz or terabytes, if not more so. The doctor is paid so that they don't have to know these things. Part of his job is to translate these terms into things a layman can understand.
I find that, in any field, you can spot the people who really understand the material because they can explain it to people with almost no knowledge. It's (obviously) a lossy transform, but they can give sufficient of an overview that the person understands the 'what' and the 'why' if not the 'how'.
Re:The only person dumber than a computer salesper (Score:4, Insightful)
Your analogy doesn't really work.
My analogy? What analogy?
I pointed out that other fields have technical jargon as well.
I pointed out that people seem almost prideful of their ignorance in regard to computers. Which strikes me as odd.
And I pointed out that in any technical field you have a choice of either educating yourself or trusting the folks you deal with.
The only bit that was even vaguely analogous was when I pointed out that in any field it is a news story when people are taken advantage of.
How many people, for example, go to the doctor and expect to be told about things like cytokine storms or acetylsalicylic acid? To most people, these terms are just as meaningless as gigahertz or terabytes, if not more so. The doctor is paid so that they don't have to know these things. Part of his job is to translate these terms into things a layman can understand.
All very true.
But that doesn't change the fact that you have to either educate yourself, or trust that your doctor knows what they're talking about.
And it is still news if some doctor has been misleading patients.
Re:What's the Difference Between a Computer Salesm (Score:5, Insightful)
>>>Somehow in the process of installing Windows--an arduous task that involves the opening of the DVD drive--they had managed to open the case, unscrew the hard drive from the case, and then bust it up enough that it took over 24 hours for Windows to finish installing.
>>>
They probably got confused when they saw Linux.
I think I would file fraud charges against this company. If they are doing that to your grandma, just imagine who else they are screwing.
The miracle was finding someone in Tesco (Score:2, Insightful)
Not that they would be trained in any specific area, although the burned lap response is quite impressive (sounds like a retail worker chinese whisper to me). It's a supermarket - the consumer does the research. It's not a specialist retailer who should know the answers and find the device ideal for you, but at a higher price.
Re:That's not what I had in mind (Score:3, Insightful)
When you're dealing with a soulless entity called "the corporation" the language of morality has no place. There is no such thing as "lie" or "con" or "honesty" - all that matters is the dollar and getting as many as possible from each walking-wallet that passes by.
Government is basically the same, but with the additional ability of not having to ask for your wallet, but instead just reaching-in and taking what it wants..... or else tossing you into jail.
Re:How many photos fit on a 500GB HD? (Score:3, Insightful)
The multiple partition thing really grinds my gears. There is no reason to make multiple partitions on a single drive. There are lots of myths floating around which are based on nonsense.
Myth 1. Seperate partitions will make your system faster
Bullshit, the hard drive will be thrashing even more trying to get to the swap space that's on a partition that's at the edge of the platter.
Myth 2. Separate partitions will make your system more reliable
Bullshit, if the hard drive crashes the whole thing is gone. If you get a destructive virus all your files will be affected.
Myth 3. You can upgrade hard drive easier if you have data in a separate partition
Bullshit, I've upgraded many computer hard drives by simply copying the single partition to the new bigger hard drive and expanding it to fill the new drive. Takes only a few clicks. How do you idiots upgrade hard drive? By reinstalling the whole operating system and files?
Myth 4. Separate partitions are less likely to get fragmented
Bullshit, the separate partitions means it's already in two giant fragments that can't ever be defragmented.
Myth 5. I have to use separate partitions because I really like having data on D: and other crap on C:
Bullshit, use subst instead.
Myth 6. You can reinstall windows (or upgrade windows) easier if you have data in a separate partition
Bullshit, this is only true if you're idiotic enough to actually put all your data into random folders on the main drive. If you have a propensity to place your mp3 files in "c:\program files\" and your p0rn into "c:\windows\system32" then you have other problems and shouldn't be using a computer. All your data files on a Windows XP machine should be in "c:\documents and settings\username\", that's it.
The truth is, if you have partitions C: and D:, it is very likely that you'll run out of space on one partition when you have plenty space on the other, then what? You'll have to resize your partitions or get a new hard drive. What a waste of time.
The whole multiple partitions on a single drive was the product of people trying to find some advantages to the shortcomings of FAT where 512MB was the reasonable limit for a partition. Sure you could do a 2GB partition but the 32kB slack space per file would suck up a quarter of the drive. So people resorted to doing multiple 512MB partitions, one for apps, one for data, one for p0rn, etc, avoiding the slack space problem. FAT was all we had back then, but there's no reason to keep doing this in NTFS or any other semi-competent file system. Get over it already!
I've heard it all, people go through great lengths to defend their multiple partitions idea because they were convinced by someone 15 years ago that it's a good idea (it was back then, but not anymore) and they can't accept that things change. Now they're just zealots who have no clue about what they're talking about. The multiple partitions died in the 90's. As the New York Times headline from December 31st 1999 puts it best: "MULTIPLE PARTITIONS ARE A THING OF THE PAST"
How long with we have Computer sales staff? (Score:3, Insightful)
Years ago, when to walk into a store and buy a computer meant you were going to drop at least $1200....probably closer to $2000, having someone to walk you through the buying process seemed pretty natural. Computers were high ticket items. You probably wanted to make sure you were getting the most for your money.
Nowadays, when it is actually pretty silly for an average user to spend more than $400 on a desktop or $600 on a laptop (TOPS) for everyday use, how necessary are "Sales Staff"? At what price point will places say screw it and just toss the stuff out on the shelves like coffee makers and toaster ovens?
Re:What's the Difference Between a Computer Salesm (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is this news? (Score:3, Insightful)
So... their entire skill set can be replaced by a sufficiently large vending machine and a GPS?
Better yet - their entire skill-set can be improved on by an internet connection. Newegg and Tiger Direct generally offer superior products at lower prices, often provide free shipping, and I don't need a GPS to navigate from my computer chair to the mailbox. The only thing that stores like Best Buy are good for is the odd occasion when I actually need a computer product immediately. This has happened only once in the last 3 years - my graphics card exploded, I had a project to finish, all the stores were closing in 15 minutes, and the closest decent computer store was half an hour away.
Actually, that taught me the one and only use for Best Buy: you can pick out an item at random, throw it on your credit card, use it until you've had a chance to buy what you really want from a better store, and then return it for a full refund. So, yeah, don't let anyone say that Best Buy is useless!
Re:I think the computer guys know too (Score:3, Insightful)
Sadly, the reverse is just as true.
Re:How many photos fit on a 500GB HD? (Score:3, Insightful)
Did you actually format, though?
I think the last time I re-formatted the system partition (on my primary comp) was in 1998. That was about the time I figured out that there's absolutely no need to format the drive when you can simply install windows into a different folder, or rename the old folder(s) before you do the install. I've run the gamut from win9x to win2k, XP, Vista, and now Windows 7, without ever bothering to reformat my system partition.
As for your main point - yeah, I haven't had to reinstall an OS due to performance issues since win2k. The "format once a year" nonsense seems to have become a widely accepted urban legend.
Re:HDMI (Score:4, Insightful)
+1 Depressing
Re:HDMI (Score:3, Insightful)
You joke, but there IS such a thing as gold-plated optical cable. Supposedly the gold provides "maximum signal clarity and integrity" for your light-based communications.
Re:It's not just computer sales... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The only person dumber than a computer salesper (Score:1, Insightful)
Untrue. A PC is an appliance, like the kettle and TV. It's no different for most people. Unless you're a developer you shouldn't have to worry about computer jargon. Unless you're a doctor you shouldn't have to know anatomy, pathology, pharmacology, physiology etc. You have a problem, you explain your symptoms to the doctor, he asks you some questions, examines you, runs a test or two and should give you a diagnosis and various therapeutic options - all explained in language you understand so you can make an informed decision about your treatment or at least know what's going on with you - that's the way I see my patients anyway and that's the way medicine is taught outside of the US anyway. There's no reason why ordinary computer users should learn about dialog boxes, radio buttons, flags, variables, registries, bits, hertz, worms, bad sectors, kernels etc. That's all just nonsense and worthless jargon. A person usually buys a PC to do something with it, not to learn techno babble - I guess that's why Macs are so much better for non-technical users and technical users with better things to do than mess with worthless Windows settings.
Re:Not where I worked (Score:3, Insightful)
I can't tell you just how refreshing it is to hear this regurgitated joke 24/7. Really; it simply never gets old. "Lol girls don't play games! At least not real games, anyway; only men can figure out how to work the complicated controls of Fallout!"
It's even more fun when you're majoring in GA&A. The entire class of guys acting just as bad as a bunch of jocks is just a delight, especially when they get into the "girls can't play games" swing of things. Honestly, you guys wonder why you can't get a girlfriend? Try not deflecting the few that are just as nerdy as you.
Sorry to go off on you, but it was just one socially inept nerd away from happening.
Re:What's the Difference Between a Computer Salesm (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What's the Difference Between a Computer Salesm (Score:4, Insightful)
During my time working there, I had written several custom diagnostic tools, and eventually a handy front end for them so we could have a single disc with most of what we used daily on it. The front end was configurable to some degree, so we could add new tools without having to recompile the front end as well. Unfortunately, as tends to happen, periodically some of these discs would get left in a CD-ROM drive when a computer went back out.
A few months after I originally created it, we got a computer in from someone who had recently taken it to the Geek Squad. In their CD-ROM drive was a utility disc from there. Upon further investigation, it was a CD running my front end that had been slightly modified to make it look like their own software. In one part of the program that doesn't get used frequently, it even still had the name of the company I worked for. So, as many others have said, they really are thieves.
Re:What's the Difference Between a Computer Salesm (Score:1, Insightful)
If you got screwed at Best Buy, knew you got screwed at Best Buy, and then WENT BACK TO BEST BUY, the problem isn't Best Buy.
Not just PCs (Score:3, Insightful)
The next day while driving, I received another phone call, this time from the expert that was assigned to my case. He proceeded to embark on a lengthy sales pitch about the different options they offered, even though I said I was driving and could he call back. He was trying to enrol me on a course as a computer technician, something that I was doing as a business 10 years ago, and for which there is very little market these days, at least not if you want to make a living. I told him I wasn't interested, and was there anything else that was more knowledge based rather than practical. So he then tried to get me interested in web design, something I was also doing commercially 10 years ago. I let him blabber on because it became truly amazing the things I didn't know about computers.
Apparently, HTML (according to this "expert") stands for Hyper Text Multi Lingual ! I laughed and ignored him. He then tried to tell me about a more complex course where if I passed, I could earn 100k working for the National Health Service. Apparently the NHS uses software called SQ and L which only runs on Cisco servers ! At this point I was in danger of crashing, so I told him to put his proposals in the post, and hung up.
Of course, they wanted 1000s of pounds for each of these courses, which could be paid back in "easy instalments" and they could even help find me a job afterwards ! So I am slightly perturbed when ever I see one of their TV ads where they promise the earth to people- earn while you learn - utter shite. If the guy selling the stuff can't even get his shit right, how good are the courses going to be ? He even told me that he had done the web design course and had ended up working for the training company. It saddens me to realise that there are probably many many people enrolled in their stupid schemes, who went there to learn, and are being made to pay for useless dreck.
On another occasion, I applied for a training course as an energy consultant, which exist because of government mandates that require all home being sold to have an energy efficiency report available. Apparently there is a desparate need for these consultants, with unlimited earning potential. So I arranged an interview for the next day, and sat back feeling like I was going somewhere. But me being me, I decided to learn as much as I could before I attended the interview. What I discovered on the internet was that not only was this the worst training company in the whole UK, charging the highest fees and responsible for the most malpractice, but also that the market for the consultants is dead, there are probably 3 times the number of consultants needed already trained and they are mostly out of work ! This company is still pushing this course in the job centres and newspapers. I have complained already, but to no avail. As far as the government is concerned, if you are training, you are not unemployed, and therefore you don't show up on their figures. No matter that you will show up there later, now is all that matters.