Paypal Orders Buyer of Violin To Destroy It For a Refund 362
An anonymous reader writes "Erica was once the owner of an old violin that had survived through WWII, and decided to sell it on Ebay for $2500. The person who bought it decided it was a counterfeit and wanted his money back. Paypal decided to honor the request for a refund on the condition that the buyer destroy the violin and provided photographic evidence of the destruction. Couldn't he have just returned it?" Sounds like a hoax to me, but I guess it's possible.
Sounds Like a Hoax Right Up Until You Read the ToS (Score:5, Informative)
Comply with PayPal's shipping requests in a timely manner.
For SNAD Claims, PayPal may require you to ship the item back to the seller - or to PayPal - or to a third party at your expense, and to provide proof of delivery. Please take reasonable precautions in re-packing the item to reduce the risk of damage to the item during transit. PayPal may also require you to destroy the item and to provide evidence of its destruction.
For transactions that total less than USD $250 (or local currency equivalent), proof of delivery is confirmation that can be viewed online and includes: recipient's (seller's) address, showing at least city, postal code, state, or country (or equivalent), delivery date, and the URL to the shipping company's web site if you've selected "Other" in the shipping drop down menu. For transactions that total USD $250 or more, you must get signature confirmation of the delivery.
Emphasis mine. Note, I found this at the original article over at Regretsy [regretsy.com] along with a picture for those of you who are lazy [regretsy.com].
..."
Well, at least everyone involved has a crazy story to tell: "Gather 'round children and let me tell you about the time I had to destroy a hundred year old violin in a timely manner. FuhrerMarks had instructed me -- back then they were known as 'PayPal' -- to destroy the violin after a dispute about its label
Very similar thing happened to me (Score:5, Informative)
I sold a 24-port Fax board on eBay via PayPal when I decommissioned our internal fax server and went to an outsourced model about 3 years ago. The purchaser filed a claim with PayPal and said they could not get it to work. I asked for the item to be returned and I would refund. Instead PayPal reversed the money without them returning the product. I am not sure if they required them to destroy it but I lost the money and the fax board and it was a working device when it shipped. I have not sold on eBay or used PayPal as a seller since.
Could be a hoax, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Were this just an isolated incident, I would be screaming hoax with the best of you; however, given PayPal's handling of a recent charity case, where a group had their account suspended after trying to raise money to buy presents for poor children, I'm not so sure. Quote PayPal's support: "You can use the donate button to raise money for a sick cat, but not poor people."
http://www.regretsy.com/2011/12/05/cats-1-kids-0/ [regretsy.com]
Re:Sounds Like a Hoax Right Up Until You Read the (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Sounds Like a Hoax Right Up Until You Read the (Score:4, Informative)
No, it's from Neil Gaiman's American Gods
Re:News? (Score:5, Informative)
I don't really see why anything old has an excessive value beyond its use.
Oddly, the type of people who appreciate and create music and art are also the type of people who might value form over function.
For violins in particular, as wood ages its tonal qualities change. Therefore, older violins are more valuable than new violins because they sound better. Well... not necessarily better but they have a more desirable sound and warm.
More importantly, a violin made in a factory in china is going to sound like crap compared to a hand made violin by a skilled luthier, even if it is brand new. An old violin was most likely made with great skill and care, and taken care of through the ages. To play something that is centuries old with a rich history is an amazing experience. This is why, while the Stradivari violins might not necessarily sound better [npr.org] than a modern violin from a master luthier, it's worth millions of dollars more.
Re:Sounds Like a Hoax Right Up Until You Read the (Score:4, Informative)
Uh, that's a good price for just about any decent-quality instrument, used or not. The seller probably could have got a lot more for it if they had done their homework.
I play the euphonium -- if I found a B&H Imperial or a Besson Sovereign for that price, I'd use Buy it Now.
Re:So, what is she going to sue paypal for the 250 (Score:5, Informative)
I am not a lawyer, but a few rules of thumb:
In any legal dispute, the person that you usually take to court is the person that you have a direct relationship with. In this case, the buyer gave the money to PayPal and PayPal then did not give it to the seller, having agreed to, or took back the money for spurious reasons. PayPal should therefore be taken to court.
Filing in a small claims court is usually very cheap and does not require a lawyer. The purpose of these courts is to allow low-value disputes to be resolved without involving the full legal process. File near you and PayPal has to send someone to your local court if they wish to defend it. If they don't defend then the judge or magistrate will rule based purely on your testimony.
Small claims courts do not usually expect either party to be a lawyer (taking a lawyer to a small claims court can often prejudice the judge or magistrate against you) and are not expected to have detailed legal knowledge. They are simply expected to state their grievance and allow the judge to decide what statue and common law is applicable. In this case, the buyer would state that, as a result of PayPal's actions, they do not have the violin worth $2,500, nor do they have the money, and so they have lost $2,500. The judge would then decide whether PayPal had acted correctly in this case.
Once you have a judgement, if PayPal refuses to pay then you can usually just hand it over to a collections agency. They will add something on top and require PayPal to pay the collections fee as well as the total amount of the judgement. If they still don't pay, then they will arrange to have PayPal assets confiscated and sold until the amount is reached.
Re:News? (Score:4, Informative)
No, the 70s Chrysler is fine only at very low speeds, such as a fender bender. I own an old (60s) vehicle, and have been rear ended in stop and go traffic. My truck came out in better shape than theirs. However, if they were going more than 5-10 MPH, things would have been quite different. Let's take a look at some videos, shall we?
1960s Crash Tests [youtube.com], mostly GM vehicles I believe.
Re:Sounds Like a Hoax Right Up Until You Read the (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, that has been changed recently. If you look at a seller's feedback page, you can see the chart showing the number of positive, neutral and negative comments in the last month/6 months/year. Click on the number of comments, and they're filtered, showing only the neutral or negative comments you want to read. Quite convienient.