Fight Over $194 Speeding Ticket Costs $15,000 and Counting

An anonymous reader writes "Roger Rude, a retired Sonoma County sheriff's lieutenant, is still fighting a speeding ticket his step-son, Shaun Malone, received in 2007. Shaun Malone was allegedly going 62 mph in a 45-mph zone, according to a Petaluma police officer. To the officer's surprise, Malone was using a GPS tracking device which reported his speed to an online database every 30 seconds. At the time of stop, the GPS reported Malone's speed at 45 mph. Rude has been helping Malone fight the speeding ticket for over two years. The Petaluma Police Department has spent $15,000 in the prosecution of this case. The case is now in the hands of the Commissioner."

Global Positioning System System never lies

[oldspewey]

Maloneâ(TM)s family contends a GPS system they installed in his car to monitor his driving proves he was driving 45 mph

It's airtight. When a judge sees that there is evidence from a Global Positioning System system he will be forced to dismiss the case.

Re:

[Strike Fiss]

If I were involved in the case I'd want to do some reliability tests using that model of GPS device and that stretch of road during similar conditions to see if it would jump around a lot. It would be interesting to see how uniform the data is from the GPS tracker in general. Did it ever post a "200mph @ 75ft" instance that the cops could use to discredit it? Or did it always have a firm sat-lock and provide reliable data? Could be a case-maker or breaker.

Re:

[sjames]

So it's about as good as the radar that has a reputation for clocking trees at 145MPH?

Re:Global Positioning System System never lies

[tecnico.hitos]

They seem fast when I drive pass them, but when I go check it out they stop.

Good thing at least one radar is able to get these sneaky trees.

Re:

[TenDigitCreations]

Not true! If proper training and operation is obtained before operating the unit, this is a factor that can be avoided. Panning, scanning, batching, cosine, and all other effects can be avoided if properly operated. It's also easy to show that they were properly avoided. Now, to the point! As a police officer, I do not want a satellite issuing citations! I will take my chances on a real person any day. If this Lt. wins this case, it will open the door to the satellites being accurate, which they are not!!!

Completely false.

[EvilStein]

The court system went down the Stupid Route and said that GPS technology wasn't accurate or reliable enough.

Read up on the case. it's insane. they should have dismissed the damn ticket immediately.

Re:

[tomhudson]

The judge was right to rule against the GPS. A sample rate of once every 30 seconds ISN'T accurate. It doesn't "prove" anything about his speed when he was clocked by the cops.

Another clueless moron ... sheesh!

[tomhudson]

That's bullshit. Nobody drives around speeding 20mph and then hitting the brakes.

Not if they don't intend to destroy their cars, that is.

Do you even have a driver's license? No, I didn't think so. You're an idiot.

There are PLENTY of people who do exactly that all the time. In many areas, the cops don't bother with you unless you're at least 20 mph over the limit, because otherwise they'd be stopping everybody. And no, braking to shave 20mph off your speed doesn't "destroy their cars." If it did, no

Re:

[Surt]

Right. No one who is speeding ever spots a cop and slows down. Ever.

Re:

[tomhudson]

The judge was right to rule against the GPS. A sample rate of once every 30 seconds ISN'T accurate. It doesn't "prove" anything about his speed when he was clocked by the cops.

You are full of it. Simple math of distance and time will solve the case and prove the GPS tracker to be accurate. Even you could probably figure this out. Just count on your fingers and toes.

Sampling only once every 30 seconds tells you NOTHING about the speed during the intervening time. If you read the other comments, or used

Re:

[tomhudson]

YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. You don't need two data points to give an average speed. One data point will give you the exact speed. DO YOUR RESEARCH. I HAVE WORKED DIRECTLY WITH GPS TRACKING SYSTEMS FOR SEVERAL YEARS. I DO KNOW THIS IS A FACT.

You know nothing.

You are a fucking retard. It won't unless you KNOW that the radar was taken the exact same time that the GPS data was taken. There is NO radar or lidar gun out there that will automatically query and sync with the perp's onboard GP

Re:

[tomhudson]

No, I'm not changing my story in any shape, manner or form. It's YOU who made false claims, and now are unable to back them up in the face of additional facts.

The only "ambiguity" here is someone hiding as an AC.

The fact that your arguments are as fucktarded as the defendants is the point - read the story. No ambiguity on either count.

Re:

[Surt]

d/t = average speed
d/t^2 = acceleration

Exercise for the day: compute the maximum speed the kid's car could have hit by looking up the manufacturer's data on acceleration (and braking), and knowing the length of the road being measured, and the time it took to traverse that distance.

Re:

[tomhudson]

Totally agree!! I respect the police but they are human and make mistakes too! It is very easy for them to clock the wrong car...much less, there is no proof the radar was even calibrated! Why waste taxpayers money over a $194 ticket!!

At the beginning and ending of every shift, the cops verify the accuracy of the radar gun. They've been down that road before (pun intended).

Re:

[TenDigitCreations]

Exactly Tom! They are not and never will be accurate enough to hold you accountable for a speeding charge!! So, the real question, do you want it to come to a point that speeding tickets are issued by mail, based on satellite? I do not!

Re:

[Demena]

You say 62 sounds about right to balance the acceleration phase but you have not taken into account the short distance travelled. Going from 0 to 62 and then slowing down to 45 in 30 seconds is going to take a lot more distance travelled than a little over a third of a mile. It would certainly take some beast of a car - if it is possible at all.

Re:

[tomhudson]

"Every 30 seconds": isn't a good enough sample rate, simple as that.

Re:

[necro81]

That was my thought as well. Who's to say that the recorded 45 mph wasn't sampled immediately after the kid hit the brakes after realizing he'd just been lit up by a cop cruiser. What was the kid's speed the previous five minutes? Unless the company can demonstrate that their device reports the maximum speed in the last 30 seconds, the data is pretty useless.

Missing data points

[OhHellWithIt]

From TFA:

The teen's GPS, however, pegged the car at 45 mph in virtually the same location.

At issue is the distance from the stoplight at Freitas Road â" site of the first GPS "ping" that showed Malone stopped â" to the second ping 30 seconds later, when he was going 45 mph.

Sonoma County Deputy District Attorney Michael Li wrote in his closing arguments that given the distance, which he pegged at 1,980 feet, and time between pings, Malone would have had to have been traveling at an average speed faster than 45 mph, thus supporting the officer's observations and the radar.

But Martinez, in his written statement, said the distance was 1,950 to 2,010 feet, making it possible for Malone to travel the two points without speeding.

The difference between 1,980 and 2,010 feet is a red herring. If he covered 2,010 feet in 30 seconds, that's an average speed of 67 ft./min., or 44.3 m.p.h., awfully close to the 45 m.p.h. limit. It would take nearly instantaneous acceleration to get from a dead stop to 45 quickly enough to achieve that average speed over 30 seconds. I'm not sure they make cars that accelerate like that. On the other hand, cars can decelerate much better than they accelerate, and it would be much easier to get from

Re:

[OhHellWithIt]

Well, I see I totally screwed up the math on this through not reading the problem correctly. It would make for an interesting high school algebra problem, though, that kids could relate to.

Re:

[0BoDy]

technically, this is a calculus problem

Re:

[OhHellWithIt]

technically, this is a calculus problem

Yes, I know. My trouble is that I never managed a passing grade in second semester calculus, and that was thirty years ago.

Re:

[tomhudson]

It would take nearly instantaneous acceleration to get from a dead stop to 45 quickly enough to achieve that average speed over 30 seconds. I'm not sure they make cars that accelerate like that.

http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html [albeedigital.com]

1. It's hard to find a car that can't do 0-60, then brake hard enough to get back to 45 mph, in that time.
2. If he "coasted" through the previous stop (an "American Stop") instead of a complete stop, then it's even easier.

Re:

[omnichad]

Is an "American Stop" really exclusive to Americans? I want to know. I hate it when people do it - especially people who try it at a 4-way stop. And is that all of North America?

Human error or GPS

[realsilly]

It's easy to make mistakes, and GPS systems are not perfect, but after 2+ years either the GPS data has proven to be very questionable or the procecution refuses to let go of an issue. At this point, I would almost believe the officer who issued the ticket is now holding a grudge to help prove a point. But that's just wild and irresponsible speculation.

Maybe my cyberfriend should do the same...

[antdude]

... since he got pulled over for $90.00 for playing UNO, on his mobile phone in IRC, while driving: http://aqfl.net/?q=node/7470 [aqfl.net] ... [grin]

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

As you transition between satellites, GPS can shift your position suddenly. Atmospheric effects and satellite movement can cause drift over time. Within 1 second you don't see a lot of drift. Over 30 seconds, yeah... You'll see some.

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Then there are buildings, canyons, bridges, issues with radio-line-of-sight, reflected signals, etc. Multipath effects can be a problem.

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There's far more than I can go into here. Wiki GPS [wikipedia.org] has a good description of all the issues.

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Most cars can accelerate to the speed limi

Radar vs. GPS Flaws

[vehicle tracking]

Radar Flaws 1. Radar signals can have interference from outside objects 2. Radar can pick up multiple vehicles at one time giving false readings 3. Police departments sometimes fail to maintain annual certification 4. Many times officer identifies and stops the wrong vehicle because they are distracted by trying to safely pull out into traffic in pursuit of the suspect vehicle. GPS Flaws 1. Tampering 2. Bridges, parking garages, bad weather causing interference The interferences with GPS can't really be ca

Trust GPS over Radar

[Anonymous Coward]

I was a police officer for many years. I wrote hundreds of speeding tickets. Radar is generally reliable, but with all things considered in this case, I would trust the GPS tracking device over the radar.