Man Accused of Selling US Military Drones On EBay 182
garymortimer writes "47-year-old Henson Chua is in a bit of trouble for trying to sell a RQ-11B 'Raven' Unmanned Aerial Vehicle on eBay. From the article: 'A federal grand jury in Tampa returned an indictment charging Henson Chua, 47, of Manilla, Philippines, with violations of the Arms Export Control Act and smuggling, following an investigation by US Immigration and Customs Enforcement's Homeland Security Investigations. If convicted on all counts, Chua faces a maximum penalty of 20 years in federal prison.'" I'm kicking myself for missing this auction.
I guess he never saw the movie.... (Score:2)
Got it where (Score:2, Interesting)
How did he acquire it in the first place, second How much did it sell for?
Re: (Score:2)
How much did it sell for?
$13000, according to Reuters [reuters.com].
Re: (Score:2)
Is this all for 100% with proof, or is this media making a case out of something that was supposed to resemble the drone, and the auctioneer used that name to get attention to his homebrew drone...???
Re: (Score:2)
Is this all for 100% with proof, or is this media making a case out of something that was supposed to resemble the drone, and the auctioneer used that name to get attention to his homebrew drone...???
That thought occurred to me, too.
If you've ever searched eBay for a particularly popular cellphone -- for example -- you've certainly noticed the wide range of knock-offs you get in the results. Some are obvious or even upfront about being a look-alike. Others less so. It certainly is at least plausible that this guy was selling a knockoff.
I have a better idea (Score:2, Interesting)
The US military should sell online drone control sessions on XBox live, they could easily ringfence the middle east and put a few thousand drones in the air. They could call the game "death from above", "warfare for all" or simply "foreign policy".
Seriously, war is not cheap so why not put the worlds gamers to good use and collect the revenue?
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Ender's Game?
More like the movie "Toys" In fact, that was the first time I'd ever seen this idea...
Re: (Score:3)
Seriously, war is not cheap so why not put the worlds gamers to good use and collect the revenue?
Here's a reason; griefers.
Re: (Score:2)
because there's always that idiot that thinks it's funny to dump the payload on the own troops for kicks. And that could maybe be a tad bit of a PR problem in this case.
Re: (Score:2)
While that would make the operational effort a bit less expensive, it would make the legal hassles many orders of magnitude more expensive.
Re: (Score:2)
Because the 13 year old singing over their headphones would give away the UAV's position.
The headphones give away their position when they open their mouth.
Perhaps tangential, but a worry nevertheless... (Score:5, Interesting)
... these UAVs are becoming more and more like amateur model aircraft. In this current climate (fear, terror, control), I believe the model aircraft crowd are therefore likely to be increasingly regulated. It has happened already to the high power rocketry crowd (they pushed back - with some limited success).
An anecdote: a few years ago, a group flew a model airplane across the Atlantic (link [bbc.co.uk]). I found this quite interesting and told a few friends. One reacted with horror, postulating that terrorists would be able to use such a thing to deliver all sorts of nasty. No counterargument convinced him of the absurdity of his fear.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Translation: We don't want the FAA to jump the gun and issue a regulation that doesn't further our goals but is far enough so we could not tighten it without raising suspicion.
Re: (Score:3)
An anecdote: a few years ago, a group flew a model airplane across the Atlantic (link [bbc.co.uk]). I found this quite interesting and told a few friends. One reacted with horror, postulating that terrorists would be able to use such a thing to deliver all sorts of nasty. No counterargument convinced him of the absurdity of his fear.
What is the absurdity of the fear that a model airplane that can fly thousands of miles by itself could be used to deliver something hazardous?
The only thing missing is a hazardous payload that is concentrated enough to be carried on an ultralight, GPS guided model plane, then it just needs to be programmed to drop the cargo on large sporting event, concert, etc. Make it a night drop and there's not much that can be done to stop it since the tiny plane would have a tiny radar cross section and be hard to s
Re:Perhaps tangential, but a worry nevertheless... (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, the absurdity is that these are fairly complex undertakings. These types of hobbies - or at least those that do it successfully - are generally for pretty smart folk, and there are precious few of those in these terrorist organizations (they do exist, but in very, very small numbers). There are far cheaper ways of working terror, and at the end of the day, everybody has a limited budget.
I happen to have played with both pyrotechnics (I was a PGI member for many years) and I now do high power rocketry. It's fun stuff, and it's far less usable to terrorists than a tank full of gasoline, but up until recently you could fill up a 300 gallon tank on the back of a pickup at any local gas station, but you couldn't store 64 grams of slow burning model rocket propellant in your garage without a BATFE inspected, plate steel, double hasp explosives magazine and a Low Explosives Users Permit. You're allowed to have 25lbs of black powder in your basement, but you still can't purchase a 0.5gram engine igniter without the aforementioned permit.
Re: (Score:2)
That's the beauty of democracy. It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to be included in something that was voted on.
Re: (Score:2)
"Actually, the absurdity is that these are fairly complex undertakings. These types of hobbies - or at least those that do it successfully - are generally for pretty smart folk, and there are precious few of those in these terrorist organizations (they do exist, but in very, very small numbers). "
Really? That seems to be a very optimistic or arrogant attitude. I am not for limiting RC and or Model rocket enthusiasts since I doubt that it would actually make anybody safer. Thing is that now that you can buy
Re:Perhaps tangential, but a worry nevertheless... (Score:5, Insightful)
What is the absurdity of the fear that a model airplane that can fly thousands of miles by itself could be used to deliver something hazardous?
It is akin to worrying about general aviation (all those "uncontrolled" airplanes in the sky - in the hands of terrorists, etc.) while ignoring the proverbial elephant in the room - Ryder trucks. Only more so.
Further, as has been demonstrated repeatedly, a car bomb is a horrifyingly effective terrorist weapon (cheap, fast, inconspicuous, readily available, large payload). As an example, the use of just one such device ended up with US forces leaving Beirut.
Thus far, no model airplanes have been used in any terrorist attack (long distance or otherwise). If we are to worry about model airplane terrorist attacks, then we are no longer able to prioritize and are fearful to the point of collapse.
Re: (Score:2)
As long as it is a cute woman doing the grope, it would lead to record numbers taking up RC piloting.
Re: (Score:2)
What is the absurdity of the fear that a model airplane that can fly thousands of miles by itself could be used to deliver something hazardous?
What's the LD50 for ricin?
The absurdity isn't for one vehicle randomly delivered or its ability to cause someone to die. The absurdity is that John Q. Public is so ego-bloated yet frightened by American marketing ploys that he thinks he could ever be the target of such a thing.
Re: (Score:2)
The absurdity of it is that this is, broadly speaking, a free country, and there is very little preventing someone from taking your life other than the fear of law enforcement.
See, thats one of the hazards of a free country, and the only way to chip away at such hazards is to increasingly implement a police state. So for every one of these worries you assuage, you give up more freedom.
THATS the absurdity of it-- are you not concerned that someone can legally own a gun, and could very easily take your life
Re: (Score:2)
He had precisely the reaction that most of America did the day the Soviets reported that Sputnik was in the sky.
The result was 30 years of intense development of ICBMs, space programs, and MIRVs, plus all the radars and launch sites and giant bombers and their bases and the tens of thousands of documents delineating how all this stuff was supposed to be used. Probably a trillion dollars or more in 1950s dollars were justified, because of that one feeling. We're still living with the streamlining of the MI
Re: (Score:2)
So you can't buy a plane? Buy a ship instead! (Score:4, Insightful)
One 19,000 tonne aircraft carrier for sale [edisposals.com], one careful owner, only used to drive to church on sundays and launch fearsome aircraft into the skies to intimidate the enemy and drink their blood [bbc.co.uk].
Re: (Score:2)
And an "Add to Wish list" button
Re: (Score:3)
What a waste of ICE's time! (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Piddling around with this irrelevant stuff takes ICE away from the far greater threat to the US of A: IP theft!>/quote>
Govetnments multitask. Deal with it.
So let me guess... (Score:2)
A+++++++ (Score:2)
Would definitely buy again.
Package Deal? (Score:2)
Did it come as a package deal along with his daughter's virginity?
Just a legal issue (Score:2)
The plane itself is nothing dangerous or even impressive.
Build your own if you want... start here: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14465 [hobbyking.com]
Which Laws? (Score:2)
Was he trying to simply steal money or did he have any means of actually delivering the device? If he is only a thief Homeland Security really should stay out of the equation.
Does this mean that I should not sell my 40 megaton armed Cruise missiles to the highest bidders?
We could solve numerous problems with armaments. For example we could spin windmills on our side of the pond with the nuclear wind caused by bombing the middle east
Encryption (Score:2)
So yes there is a reason a bunch of better informed people would say he is guilty for selling "a remote plane with a camera"
Re:Hmm.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
I need a stealth bomber - for duck hunting.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Does having to file a flight plan with the FAA before use count as an infringement on your right to bear arms?
You're free to carry your stealth bomber anywhere you like without filing a flight plan. Otherwise, it's the arms bearing you - which is not covered under the constitution.
Re: (Score:3)
Wouldn't the point of a stealth bomber be that the FAA couldn't actually tell where you were flying?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I need a stealth bomber - for DUCK HUNTing.
How else are you going to get that damn snickering dog?
Re: (Score:3)
^^ The things people would do to kill that fucking dog!
Re: (Score:2)
But if you keep a garage full and wait years, you'll have the fun of rediscovering forgotten things.
It would be handy to have one to know where the cat wanders off to. And it would be nice to see if it is a busy day at Farmers' Market, or if any odd smoke is coming from the local power plant. It would be more than a little distracting to control one while driving a car, but with a co-pilot it might be good for picking an optimal route. Acting as a repeater, it might help with picking up that not so stron
Re:I had one of these when I was a kid! (Score:4, Informative)
Yes. With a camera.
And a 6 mile range. And a ceiling of 15,000 feet. And speed up to 60 mph.
And autonomous GPS navigation.
Probably you didn't have a plane like that when you were a kid.
Re: (Score:3)
Camera? Yeah, cameras in RC planes have been done since at least the 80s, complete with video transmission back (often, but not always, in the amateur UHF bands)
6 mile range? Yes, if left alone in stable flight most gas RC planes can cover 6 miles before running out of gas. Controlling it would be rather difficult since you couldn't see it unless you were doing something like driving along following it.
Ceiling of 15k ft? Probably possible, but not likely from a control standpoint - again, you can't see
Re: (Score:2)
Well, with fpv/rpv, it's possible now to go past the 6 mile range and perhap the ceiling (?).
First person view has made leaps and bounds the last 20 years in RC planes.
Re: (Score:2)
mile range? Yes, if left alone in stable flight most gas RC planes can cover 6 miles before running out of gas. Controlling it would be rather difficult since you couldn't see it unless you were doing something like driving along following it.
It's actually an operational radius of 6 miles, so you're almost halfway there. While the RC is running out of gas and falling into enemy hands with it's software and sensor packages the UAV is turning around, flying all the way back to base and landing safely with minimal reserves ;)
Re: (Score:2)
Not really that new.... Home made UAV is easy and have been built by amateurs for years now....
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9980 [sparkfun.com] this works FANTASTIC as a UAV brains. spookly good.
Plus you can get a drone model that looks 100% identical to the Military version. Give a guy a couple grand and he can easily build a real UAV with PTZ camera, control with GPS waypoints and why build custom RF for comms... use a frigging cellphone, I could talk to the UAV via cellular communication channels across the c
Re: (Score:2)
Ceiling of 15k ft? Probably possible, but not likely from a control standpoint - again, you can't see it.
It's been done in combination with remote video. That said, it's not exactly legal, and for good reasons. The guys doing this have spotters on the ground checking for planes in the area with binoculars, but it's still not safe to have what is essentially a 10lb. piece of debris floating around where manned aircraft could pass.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed.
And if more people asked for this, then naturally the cost of a UAV wold go down, and the goals for a new UAV that could fly above them would be established.
I for one, want the ability to tail any of my daughters on their dates. *Grin*
- Dan.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually you can get a fairly cheap UAV, by retrofitting an existing plane, with a camera and transmitter.
The hard part is long range control, as while the transmitters are good for a mile or so being able to control a target at that distance with mark one eyeballs is a tad difficult.
that is why you need two camera's, one in the belly, and one in the "cockpit"
In 1994 i know of one guy who modified an arcade game case(the kind were you sat inside of it) to be the on the ground cockpit for his RC plane. it
Re: (Score:2)
Acquire a gumstix and mate this with cell-based internet connectivity, stream control on one account, video on another. Maybe add another channel for weapons deployent.
All problems solved. This isn't the rocket science you think it is.
- Dan.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Score!
- Dan.
Re: (Score:2)
I for one, want the ability to tail any of my daughters on their dates. *Grin*
http://ardrone.parrot.com/ [parrot.com]
Knock yourself out*
*I do not condone the creepyness of actually doing this
Re: (Score:3)
you do realize that other than the amount of money they have managed to spend on UAV's in 10 years there is nothing really amazing about them?
sure your average RC plane can't carry a hellfire missle .. but it didn't need to .. and most of the UAV's can't.. only select ones.
given the opportunity the RC crowd could, in my mind, have done just as well if not better than what we have now for a lot less.
Re: (Score:2)
There are companies selling airframes with cameras that are every bit as good as these. You've got to hunt around a bit, but they are out there, selling their products to farmers, geologists, forest rangers and local law enforcement. There's still a little wiggle-room in regard to the legality of how they can be used. There's a state forest not far from Rolla, MO where if you're lucky and you happen to be hiking
Re: (Score:2)
Re:I had one of these when I was a kid! (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes but, also (most likely), the camera and sensor package. RC planes have carried cameras before, but not of the quality level of what's installed on moder UAVs. Also, they probably have other nice toys like high-end night vision and an advanced software package to tie it all together.
Re: (Score:2)
You can get RC planes with nicer cameras than what the military uses. They want durability not absolute best picture possible.
Re: (Score:2)
Why would losing the drone compromise the secure communications channel? The drone should have a unique private key, as should HQ.
Re: (Score:2)
Why would losing the drone compromise the secure communications channel? The drone should have a unique private key, as should HQ.
Makes no difference when the enemy is radio jamming. It would be much easier to build/modify a radio transmitter to jam signals and make the UAV unable to be remotely controlled for an area than it would be to actually intercept and take control of the UAV. I would suggest that the primary concern is that the UAVs transceiver can be reverse engineered for the frequency range/channelization and then create a device that would allow for easy end-user jamming.
When I worked on radio systems in the Navy we had
Re: (Score:2)
I would suggest that the primary concern is that the UAVs transceiver can be reverse engineered for the frequency range/channelization and then create a device that would allow for easy end-user jamming.
Can't they tell what channel the UAV is listening on by listening for what channel HQ is broadcasting on? Kind of hard to keep that a secret.
Re: (Score:2)
1. It would depend on whether they can discriminate between that and any other frequencies being used.
2. They would need to know what method of modulation being used, AM, FM, Single sideband, dual sideband, etc.
3. When audibly scanning frequencies, most encrypted traffic is indistinguishable from static.
Let's say you had a spectrum analyzer and hooked it to an antenna and you had an antenna that you could electronically adjust the length (antenna length is a factor in broadcast and receiving frequencies) an
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Absolutely so. How your spy planes work makes no difference when the enemy is broadcasting its position loudly, so everybody notices.
Re: (Score:2)
Who says you have to man a transmitter?
Re: (Score:2)
Should. Yes.
Re: (Score:2)
Why would losing the drone compromise the secure communications channel? The drone should have a unique private key, as should HQ.
And furthermore, I can't imagine they don't expect to lose quite a few of these things. The size alone tells you they're obviously built to be expendable.
Re: (Score:3)
I'd be pretty sure the gov't would have provisions in place in case a transceiver did fall into the wrong hands. Military aircraft, vehicles, and troops, can all be subject to capture by an enemy. At that point, there is a good chance that any specialized equipment would be captured (along with their weapons, MREs, and fuel in the vehicle).
It's probably not a question of who may see it, but how much it cost. The gov't (and therefore we) pay a small fortune for every one of t
Re: (Score:2)
It's probably not a question of who may see it, but how much it cost. The gov't (and therefore we) pay a small fortune for every one of these innovative new devices deployed. It's definitely worth while for the gov't to want to go collect a stolen unit, rather than just ordering a new one. According to the USAF, that item cost approximately $173,000 [af.mil].
I'm interested. How much is parts, how much is labor and how much is kickback?
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't understand what should be special in communications for a device like this. We have huge, light weight hard drives these days. You just have to fill a 100 gigabytes of hard drive space with random data and copy that data onto another hard drive. Xor your transmissions against the random data on one end and xor it again against the matching random data at the other end. Voila, one time pad. 100 gigabytes worth of theoretically perfect, unbreakable encryption. It's not secret in any way, everyone in c
Re: (Score:3)
Either military contractors are doing what they do best, or this particular model airplane has some kind of fancy tech tricks up its sleeve...
Re: (Score:2)
Just a guess but:
- all carbon fiber
- ruggedized, mil-spec, gold contact connectors
- ultra-high end camera system with custom x-y actuator and super zoom
- latest generation night vision technology
- super advanced radio tech with top-secret communications protocol/encryption
- advanced, custom, guidance software
- advanced, custom, camera software such as computer vision for identifying targets, etc.
Re: (Score:2)
I used to work for the manufacturer of the RQ-11 Raven. It’s not just a remote controlled toy. It’s a real airplane with a sophisticated autopilot, a long-range radio link, and a video ground control system. I’m limited by a nondisclosure agreement to what I can say, but I can go over each point in some more detail:
1) It’s a real airplane: UAVs are controlled by the same FAA regulations as airplanes. They require a Certificate of Airworthiness (COA) in order to operate in US
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
I don't need remote control airplane to figure out how to jam it. Just need a powerful radio that jams everything, in Military designated freqs. Targeting freqs are easier said than done. Also, I'll bet that the drones are outfitted with autonomous mode GPS guidance that if they lose contact, the go to a predesignated area for retrieval.
Getting your hands on one of these would likely be of limited benefit.
Re: (Score:2)
see this, embedded in my post ...
Re: (Score:2)
Wouldn't that be security through obscurity? I'm pretty sure that's verboten in /. groupthink.
Re: (Score:2)
No the point is that mission critical assets like that should not rely on security through obscurity. They should remain secure no matter who has the hardware.
Re: (Score:2)
It's a radio signal. Jamming is not hard or complicated. However, being able to get into the command and control system and doing things like feeding it false information or other such things... yeah, I guess a bit of a big deal.
But in general, the stuff to make a UAV of even your own design is also "bad." It sort of reminds me of the encryption export laws. (Are they still in effect?) You know the one I am talking about? The one that says "128 bit encryption is for use within the US only and cannot b
Re: (Score:2)
Anybody possessing one could reverse engineer the command and control system for the drone and come up with a way of jamming it, rendering all the other drones still in possession of the military useless. So yes, it IS a big fucking deal.
The problem is foreign enemy governments have been entirely unsuccessful given both multiple samples and human intelligence. So using the word "anybody" is a little inaccurate, when you take "the world" and subtract out everything 3rd world that leaves some friendly nations and china / russia. And there is no guarantee they would succeed, just guarantee that multiple less capable groups have failed.
Its not really a big deal at all.
Re: (Score:2)
Wow, that would almost be as big a catastrophe as if the entire UAV program decided to rely on security by obscurity! Oh, wait...
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Its only illegal arms import, export and smuggling.
Re: (Score:2)
If he had been dealing with a reputable US manufacturer of semi-automatic weapons he would have been fine. But selling fancy RC aircraft of dubious provenance is clearly beyond the pale.
Re: (Score:2)
I've got $50 that says 95% of the components in the Raven were made in China
Re: (Score:2)
I will take that bet, they were all made in Taiwan. Oh wait..
Re: (Score:2)
So is selling your laptop on eBay to someone with an address in Iran.
Not that I disagree with ITAR, I just think it's got its ludicrous side.
So you only have to follow laws you agree with? (Score:2)
That's nonsense, anarchy (Score:3)
In a civil society, people can't pick and choose what laws they follow. An essential element of living in a republic means you submit to laws, even when your side loses, not just when it wins.
Re: (Score:2)
Thank heavens the bagpipe is considered a munition, though. We wouldn't want too many of those getting loose.
Re: (Score:2)
By who and what charge?
Re: (Score:2)
/sargasm
Well that sounds like fun.
Re: (Score:2)