When Software Offends 467
ndogg writes "The open source Python projects Pantyshot and Upskirt have caused quite a stir within the Python community, and catalyzed the leaving of one of their developers (a woman whose native language is not English.) The original developer, Frank Smit, has renamed Pantyshot to Misaka, but that too has suspect etymology, as Violet Blue points out."
Well.. (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the beautiful thing about freedom, you're free not to use media or software that offends you...
There's plenty of bigots and assholes out there. If you feel it's worth the fight, be my guest. I'm gonna go with the second choice, which is ignoring it. They'll both have the same end result, anyway...
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And that's exactly what the developer who was trolled into using the name did - she's not developing in the community anymore.
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she's not developing in the community anymore.
And this is newsworthy because...?
I'll have to call my local media later. Someone holding a sign with a racial slur made me cross the street once. I don't know how I managed to cope with this without bringing my plight to the masses...
Re:Well.. (Score:5, Insightful)
If your goal is to build a community to develop software, doing things which drive people from the community tend to be counterproductive. If, in the alternative, your goal is to establish a community for the purpose of being antisocial jerks, then doing things which drive people who don't like antisocial jerks from the community would be worthwhile, I suppose.
I had thought the goal of this Python community had more to do with the former than the latter, but I could be wrong.
OS has Perfect Solution (Score:3)
If your goal is to build a community to develop software, doing things which drive people from the community tend to be counterproductive.
True but, thanks to OS licenses, there is a perfect solution which the community can take without having to resort to censorship: fork and rename the project. Then, when presumably the community all downloads and uses the more appropriately named project it will send a very strong message to the jerk who wrote the original package that the community as a whole does not tolerate such behaviour.
All this modern push for more and more rules and regulations is not always needed. If the community really belie
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I often do/write offensive things to weed out the whiners. I'd rather goad someone into showing their intolerance through a harmless joke or pun, than find out much later once I've invested my time and effort into a relationship. I prefer not to censor myself - I see political correctness as the wool that is drawn over society's eyes. That doesn't mean I'm not a nice guy, I just don't candy coat my words. If my colourful vocabulary and frank talk is enough justification for someone to dislike or even de
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Taking a picture of someone's undies without permission, as almost all "upskirt" is, certainly isn't at the level of child rape, but it's illegal and offensive to a lot of people..
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Well, the woman who was running the project that got sideswiped by this naming issue has now said she is leaving "open source" b/c of the experience. Seems like if you're going to ask about the impact of "what's in a name?" there's a good place to start.
I think a better naming analogy than the ones you provide for this project might be something related to violence not to theft. Project "Soldier murder" or Project "Cop killer" are (much) more extreme than Project "Pantyshot," but suggest what I'm getting at
Re:Well.. (Score:5, Insightful)
No, one barely risque project name is not indicative of being a community of antisocial jerks. Tricking a non-English-speaking woman into naming her project something demeaning to women in general, then responding, "Eh, she's too thin-skinned," when she realizes what's happened and leaves the community; that is indicative of being a community of antisocial jerks. Being asked to name your project something less offensive than "Project Pantyshot", and naming it after what is apparently a child famous for pantyshots; that is indicative of being an antisocial jerk.
This is not about women's underwear. This is about having a level of basic human empathy, and realizing that because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.
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Just to be clear: characters in a comic are not actually real people. Thus, it was not the name of a "child famous for pantyshots", it was the name of a fictional character, who is eleven years old in the context of the fiction, and whose underwear is frequently depicted. I'm not saying that this isn't perverted (there's a reason why it's called "hentai"), but it is worlds apart from an actual child in the same situation.
Furthermore,
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Everybody has buttons to push. What is the package were named: "kill_all_(insert racial slur here)." No reaction? How about the "Jesus_is_Lord" sorting algorithm, all nicely packaged for your use. Maybe "(insert_political_part)_are_idiots." I could go on and on, but I am sure that you see my point. Given enough effort, it is possible to piss off anybody.
I fully support the entire US bill or rights, including (and especially) the 1st amendment. A person should have the freedom to say whatever they wan
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Well, reading the words of the woman in question directly, it seems pretty clear that she was disgusted with the way the name issue played out.
Re:Well.. (Score:5, Insightful)
And the managers are free not to allow a package with an offensive name in. Look, (non-government) censorship isn't always bad. We self-censor ourselves everyday. That’s part of living in a society. What if the package was called Childr@per or nigg3r? Should those be included? No. Is that censorship? You bet!
.The only question is, does this cross the line? I say this is the kind of behavior that keeps women excluded from geek culture. But just calling it "censorship" isn't a valid reason to enforce non-offensive package names.. I mean, come on.
Now, some people take offense at every little thing. Some people are very thick skinned.
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This is true.
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FCK Editor, anyone? (Score:3)
It’s not that the names were simply sexual in nature: it was that they targeted a women over the very thing that makes them a minority in the Python community in the first place: you could call it a sexual exploit.
So generally speaking, I support the name change, especially if this is true:
She, not being a native English-speaker, had accepted on trust a foreign-language name for her library. According to Holden, the revelation - and the attention to her unknowing complicity - brought about with the name was so uncomfortable for her that she quit working in open source altogether.
But it's still a slippery slope.
Re:FCK Editor, anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
Easiest way to avoid a slippery slope is to build a fence. Establish guidelines, enforce them, and suddenly your slippery slope becomes quite navigable.
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Easiest way to avoid a slippery slope is to build a fence. Establish guidelines, enforce them, and suddenly your slippery slope becomes quite navigable.
Until you build so many fences that navigating the path becomes akin to navigating a maze.
They have established guidelines and are enforcing them. The guidelines say, 'there will be no censorship.' They would rather people didn't abuse their freedoms, but will not remove those freedoms because a minority do choose to abuse it. What you're proposing is that they establish new guidelines because people were offended. If they do that everyone is offended, soon there will be a 40-page document on guidelines
FCK me? (Score:2)
FSCK you!
FCKeditor isn't really a good example (Score:5, Informative)
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Yes, and the people who make it know this and are being asses about not changing the name. They decided to have their little joke, no matter how bad it is for public relations and for actually getting people to adopt free software.
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But it's still a slippery slope.
Indeed it is. Sometimes PC based name changes can end up costing millions or more, because the name change isn't obvious, there are legacy apps that depend on a naming, or simply because the name change creates animosity.
Sun's switch from master/slave to the euphemism producer/consumer in order not to offend African-Americans by using the taboo word "slave" is a good example of all three.
Changing a name can, perhaps, be appropriate when there isn't already an established name, but being PC just to be PC is
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All they're doing is limiting the usefulness (Score:5, Insightful)
Would anyone working for/at a real-world business ever use any of that software? I highly doubt that anything that can bring about a sexual harassment suit just from publishing its documentation is worth even a penny.
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People joke, but this is the reason I stopped talking about GIMP in my photo editing classes. It's also why I stopped recommending GoDaddy to web clients. If you want to be taken seriously, here's a tip. Don't name your software something that has the potential to offend people. And don't make your website look like a Hooters ad.
How about "when software is named by assholes" (Score:5, Insightful)
I love how this is all framed as people being "offended," so that everyone can say "Ooh, look at the little baby, so offended by harsh language." When actually the issue is that the names for these (non-panty-related) software has been picked out by dudes who apparently think that it's hilarious to take pictures up women's skirts without their consent (which is what everyone knows "upskirt" and "pantyshot" mean, on the internet). You don't need to be a native speaker of English to know what they think of women.
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Hell, even without the sexual harassment issues, the fact that a native speaker of English decided to humiliate a non-native speaker through a name suggestion would seem to indicate that we're not exactly dealing with the nicest people ever,
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Interesting question: how has their[1] view of women been shaped by women's disgust and rejection of them? What THEY think of women...how about what women think of THEM? (there's that scary "them" again...why do we always use this word when we talk about people we don't understand and have no desire to understand?) A little understanding goes a long way. The desire to label men as objects, to say they are nothing more than pantyskirt perverts, dehumanizes men and makes them into complete monsters, undes
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So ... they couldn't get a date in high school, so it's OK for them to name software after a genre that revolves around the (implied or explicit) humiliation of women? I don't think anyone's labelling "men" as objects, I think people are labelling these particular men as rude.
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Spot the perv who wants validation.
If its GPLd just make a spin-off (Score:2)
You are free to change the name then.
But i honestly must admit that i never got why you would call your software in any weirdly conotated way. You will just narrow the circle of users. Before i have to explain inside a company where non-geeks also participate in meetings that i use libupskirt i would rename it and use it under the other name.
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Yeah, this is what I'm thinking. Fork the thing with two new features: a name you can mention in a business meeting without getting nasty looks from 3/4 of your colleagues, and a lead developer who has actually matured beyond the age of fourteen.
By the way, what does this thing even do?
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I humbly suggest the name "libcreep" named for the way parsers creep through the syntax tree and absolutely positively having no other intended meaning.
It's not the software which offends (Score:3)
it's the aspies who give their software hostile and immature names which offend.
What the fuck kind of idiot thinks "upskirt" and "pantyshot" are good names for a computer program?
Re:It's not the software which offends (Score:5, Funny)
What the fuck kind of idiot thinks "upskirt" and "pantyshot" are good names for a computer program?
Anyone remember Jesux? (Score:2, Flamebait)
Jesux [slashdot.org] proposed to remove '"kills" and "aborts" and "daemons"' and other anti-christian parts from linux and redistribute it. It was a colossal fail (or more likely a hoax), but it gave us all a pretty good laugh at the time. That was what, 12 years ago? I think that was far more offensive.
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It was a hoax.
Pretty tasteless, but I can think of worse (Score:2, Interesting)
Why would you name a parser like that? I mean, I'm all for freedom of speech, and that has to include potentially offensive speech, but why choose that? It's dumb. And I don't mean just the "potentially offensive" angle, but from a technical standpoint too. Talk about poisoning the Google searches! When people go looking for it, the legitimate software library you worked so hard to code is going to be buried way at the end of a long list of ... other stuff. Simultaneously I'm not keen on how easily of
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Actually, that's a pretty good idea. I've I was part of the Python community, I think I would offer this suggestion to on the relevant mailing list. Someone aught to.
This seems to happen from time to time. (Score:5, Interesting)
I remember about 7-8 years ago, when someone coded up an emulator for the Neo-Geo Pocket Color. The supposed full name of the product (which none of the developers ever used) was "Rather A Pokemon Emulator?" and the logo was a Pikachu poorly Photoshopped for, shall we say, reasons of endowment. I don't recall if the software was open-source or not, but the naming controversy doesn't sound too different from this.
Free speech allows you to name your project whatever you want, no matter how tasteless. Free association, however, allows people to decide not to use your project based on its name. Open-source even lets someone fork it, changing little if anything but the name, and snag the userbase out from under a puerile manchild.
FWIW (Score:2)
I don't have a problem with a developer deciding to use names like this for a package, if they want to stick their neck out.
The point here, is apparently that *the developer* wasn't sticking their neck out; someone else did it *for them*. *That*, I have a problem with.
So, y'all people shooting at the name itself? That's a strawman; please look at what's actually offensive here.
But what do they do? (Score:2)
I read the entire article and still have no idea what the upskirt/pantyshot libraries actually do. Seems like a bit of critical info to leave out of the article.
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From Google:
Upskirt: The Markdown library that sucks less than your Markdown library
So what does it do? The library is intended to be a python library module used by various projects to convert Markdown syntax into HTML.
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Leave it be (Score:2)
There's plenty of stuff that offends me to some degree or another, but I ignore it and move on because I can't censor someone else without giving them the power to censor me in return. Yes, those names are stupid, juvenile, and annoying. I'll be damned if I want to put anyone in the position of having the power to ban or reject software for those reasons, though. I'd rather be offended and annoyed than silenced.
It's a shame (Score:2)
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How do you know that cavalier attitude won't lead to harassment or hostile workplace suits once he works for you?
BitchX anyone? (Score:3)
True story - when I was implementing an internal IRC network for a former employer, I was instructed to add BitchX to our desktop UNIX builds - but rename the binary.
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*snort* Why couldn't the idiot have used XChat or some other client?
guys who girls won't fsk (Score:3)
It used to be this was much bigger of an issue. Look up mnemonics for resistor color codes for examples. These names are mild in comparison. Boys must understand that a woman who is working on code is not going to look kindly when she is treated primarily as an object to be used to satisfy the boys need for sexual gratification.
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Your assumption that use of crude language is a male thing is rather sexist.
I don't approve of calling a project something like that, but I the woman I hang out with are far FAR more crude in ordinary conversation than any of the guys I work with.
What? (Score:2)
So humor you might use with your friends with whom you have understandings creates a problem when you use it publicly?
I thought any kind of humor you want to use is always acceptable in all contexts. It never occurred to me that one might want to use diplomacy in a public project that you want wide acceptance of.
If you are MARKETING a product, then... (Score:2)
....consider the CUSTOMER.
Understandably, many Aspies despise convention, but if I name something "couchslug's wrinkly ballsack" I should understand that will have a rather limited appeal.
It may alienate a tiny minority of potential customers who don't care to picture my nuts. That I find my nuts quite nice is beside the point.
This concept is terribly difficult for some people to understand.
Time to rename the GNU Image Manipulation Program? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Blog post wrong! News at 11! (Score:3)
The blog post got several things wrong about the anime character "Misaka" (actually Misaka Mikoto) from To aro Majutsu no Index/To aru Kagaku no Railgun.
Firstly, she's about 15, not 11. In no way could you look at her and think she's 11. There is a clone of her who's biologically about 8 (Last Order) - maybe they mixed them up.
Secondly, the whole upskirt bit in Railgun is having a laugh at pantyshots. Mikoto wears shorts under her skirt, so she's actually immune to upskirt and panty flashes, much to the disappointment of her roommate Kuroko.
There is another character in Railgun who is constantly suffering panty flashes thanks to a friend, but it's not Misaka Mikoto.
The blog also characterises Anime as "adult comics" when as we all (should) know, it's all animation (child-oriented or adult-oriented) in Japan.
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I should note that the character who suffers panty flashes (Uiharu) never actually shows her panties to the audience IIRC. It's only her friend Saten who sees them and says what they are.
Apologies to Mark Twain (Score:2)
The reports of /.'s death are greatly exaggerated.
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Re:People need to get out more (Score:4, Insightful)
People will use all kinds of reasons to justify their behaviour. I imagine this name would make all kinds of people want to try out the software as well. Do you think the main purpose of the open source community is to provide tools for megacorporations?
I don't see how this naming would make anyone want to try out this software. But what it would do is make it difficult for a person in a business environment to search for and access this package, especially those with strict internet filtering.
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But what it would do is make it difficult for a person in a business environment to search for and access this package, especially those with strict internet filtering.
That's the business's problem, not the software's author's.
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Do you think the main purpose of the open source community is to provide tools for megacorporations?
What about Mom and Pop Shops? (1-25 employees)
What about small businesses? (25-100 employees)
What about medium sized businesses? (100-1000 employees)
What about Large businesses? (1000-10000 employees)
How about Not For Profit?
How about Government?
How about Military?
How about Education?
I could see all these groups being politically offended using such tools with names like that. The only group with a Naming Sch
Re:People need to get out more (Score:4, Insightful)
On the flip side, perhaps you ought to be offended, but have been too desensitized.
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Fair point but I would like to think that we've got past being horrified by anything remotely sexual. Let's be honest here, one of the biggest money spinners in the US is porn - people buy it, yet as soon as someone in public says 'panties', they're frowned upon as some sort of devient, usually by the same people who just downloaded MILF episode 3.
Re:People need to get out more (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a difference between Puritanistic horror at anything sexual and being offended by naming a software program after an act of non-consensual peeping.
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Oh, is that what it meant.
Thanks.
Re:People need to get out more (Score:5, Insightful)
It might be hypocritical, but we're not here to be the arbiters of social norms. We're here to write code.
Naming stuff to be kitschy or to offend other people is childish. You don't have an obligation to anyone to name your software any particular way, but if you behave like a child, you shouldn't be too surprised when adults get offended. If your goal is to write code that gets used, you should pretend to be an adult--at least while you're naming it.
If you make a useful library and intentionally give it a disgusting name, you're a psychological sadist. You don't care what other people think, you just enjoy knowing they squirm every time they have to deal with your library. Grow up. Get a little empathy.
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Really, if you're naming things Up Skirt or Panty Shot you need to crawl out from under that rock and get out more.
Re:People need to get out more (Score:5, Insightful)
No. I'm sorry. No. Theres a difference between having fun with software names and this. It is incredibly misogynistic, and it is perfectly reasonable to be offended by it. The name refers to a non-consensual sexual intrusion, something you might consider light rape.
There's a big difference between this and something adolescent and immaturely sexual, but not horribly offensive like, oh, 'booblib'.
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Oh I think people are way too ready to be offended by anything and everything these days.
The name refers to a non-consensual sexual intrusion, something you might consider light rape.
You think an upskirt (which are usually staged) is akin to rape? Wow.
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You mightn't, but in many states* such an action will land you a felony and get a registered sex offenders list entry. And of course it's a Federal crime to boot.
* Yeah, yeah US-centric, but it's slashdot...
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No there isn't. Just because YOU don't see this as having fun with names doesn't mean the author didn't. 'Having fun with names' and 'Having fun with names that I approve of' are not the same thing. 'Having fun with names' and 'using names that aren't offensive' are also not the same thing.
Once again
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The name refers to a non-consensual sexual intrusion, something you might consider light rape.
What the hell is "light rape"? Is that something like the George Bluth's "light treasons"?
There's a big difference between this and something adolescent and immaturely sexual, but not horribly offensive like, oh, 'booblib'.
'booblib' might not be terribly offensive to YOU, but I'm sure it's incredibly offensive to quite a few people. The question isn't even, "how do we decide where the line is", but rather "how do we decide who decides where the line is."
Look, I agree with you. It's misogynistic. It's immature. It's not funny in any way. It is your right to be offended by it.
That said, it's still not right to censor it.
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I think we need to distinguish between censorship and "light censorship." We're not censoring information. We're not infringing on someone's right to be heard, or to express themselves. In this case, we're requesting that an author pick a less-demeaning name for a software package. (IMO, the fact that he goes and picks a name associated with child upskirt shots, then says "Nyah, can't prove anything!" just goes to show how childish he really is.)
I understand that the party-line around here is "Censorship =
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Thanks for the tip.
I'm off to go learn Python, now, just so I can create some stuff named as follows:
Rape
PrisonRape
DateRape
Throatfuck
Puker
GHB
Papabear
Cameltoe
I appreciate your help in this matter. I had no idea that people could be so easily offended by arbitrary words, but I'll be keen to choose the most offensive names I can in the future. (It's open source, so I don't give a fuck if you like the name or not -- it's a software project that anyone else is free to ignore, not a marketing class.)
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The something wrong is your understanding of words like "consensual", "accidental", "intentional", and "illegal".
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Further, if in the course of some other activity a woman accidentally shows her underwear on camera, that too is called a 'pantyshot' even though the camera was not there for the explicit purpose of capturing the event.
That either of thes
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Excellent example! And then they humiliate the woman by publishing the photos without her consent.
False. I know videos like this were on America's Funniest Home Videos (and analogous shows) all the time, all with express legal consent.
Re:People need to get out more (Score:4, Insightful)
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Right.
For their next trick, the Python community is probably going to honor Rapelay with a project in the name of that (in)famous "teen rape sim". Remember: do not get offended, get out more.
If that succeeds they might start moving into other "get out more" subjects like "barbe-jew" or "Niggapocalypse". My, there are suddenly many people crawling out from under rocks...?
And then people stop using Python. Because the taint is not worth it any more.
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It's just words. And unless you, as a reader/listener validate them, nothing can happen.
Now of course, in a case like with a parent calling his child something bad... then of course, some actual harm is caused. (And as a victim of this, I know for a fact, that it's just as bad if not worse than "physical" harm, as physical harm can be fixed much easier.)
But if you're grown up, and someone calls you a (let's use something that would offend most here) "pathetic childish complete loser who never had sex and never will be, fucks his Yoda fleshligh [epicfail.com] and will die all alone, crying himself to sleep every night until then", it depends entierly on you.
So because you were non rational as a child it was wrong of your parents to call you names, perhaps even rightfully so, perhaps you were one of those oversensitive ego's, and you needed some hard hitting words. But when a grown up does it to another grown up it is okay in your book? Kinda double standard that.
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Offended or not, if I was a woman in a community of 95%+ men that thought it ok to bring up upskirts or pantyshots, I think I might feel uncomfortable and unwelcome.
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Very well. You are a malodorous, overweight, chronic underachiever, and a product of three generations of grossest incest who kidnaps, rapes, and murders small infants, in-between attending Nazi rallies, watching snuff films, and working in the financial industry.
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Then I'm wondering: if this code is not used for, you know, actual panty shots - where is all the consternation coming from? Lots of projects have not-so-clever names that are in no way connected to how they work. If the stink caused over this non-issue was actually enough to make a developer quit the project, then it's a big red flag for everyone to stay the hell away from this toxic community.
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Well, yeah. This isn't really about the word "upskirt," so much as how the community wants to conduct itself. Does it want to be a mature/professional environment where everyone can feel comfortable, or does it want to be a bastion of free speech, where you can name your project whatever you want, just because you can.
You look at this and say, "I would never want to work in a community where people are so easily offended," while I'm sure others look at this incident and say, "I would never want to work in
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Since it's an open-source project, the only sane resolution is to fork it. Upskirt/Pantyshot for the frank crowd, and Pantsuit/Burqa for the prudes.
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Or, you know, male programmers, who by far outnumber females, can show some common sense and decency by not driving away the minority of females in this profession? Why would women want to get involved with FOSS with guys who act like they are still living in their parents basement and have all the maturity of an 18 year old.
Seriously, some people need to stop living up to the stereotype of programmers as being socially maladjusted neuro-atypical douchebags.
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How exactly is the person who is offended to blame for being offended? Also, just how far does that reasoning stretch?
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I'm OK with that.
Assuming arguendo that you are in fact offended (rather than more realistically that you're trolling), it's not that you're culpable for being offended, but rather that your sense of being offended over my statement is not something I'm going to strive to avoid.
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And?
Swing has multiple meanings, only one of them is even remotely sexual, and even in that capacity it is not something remotely offensive.
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For what it's worth, the first scene of Great Teacher Onizuka anime contains just that -- as seen in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flaWaPP2nto [youtube.com] . Series in question are not in any way pornographic, sex is mentioned often but no one actually has sex or shows up naked "on camera". Showing panties on animated girls is about as close to pornography as it gets there.
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There's a difference between a consensual performance and a non-consensual act (which many, many upskirts at least pretend to be). Someone familiar with the nuances of both is perfectly placed to comment upon the issue. I fail to see what your attempt at slut-shaming brings to the conversation.
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There's nothing "adult" to anime just like there's nothing "adult" to videos.
You're technically right, but, let's face it, a large amount of anime that's been produced lately is targeted at sexless male otaku(then again that new BEPAPAS series looks interesting, but let's face it Ikuhara's a creep).
I do watch Japanese porn regularly (sorry) , and I've never heard of anybody half famous that goes with the name Momoko. A quick google indicates that a "Momoko Tani" is a "Japanese Idol" that wears suggestive clothings (usually scanty swimsuits/bikinis), but not anything that you could call "porn".
Gravure IS PORN.
Also, Momoko Miyu is a Japanese porn actress in proper AV films.
Perhaps it's not the weird Japanese names that's causing Google to give you all those Chilling Effects, but maybe "upskirt"? I've turned off any "safe filters" in Google, and probably my jurisdiction is less anal about child porn (but I haven't seen any of child porn in those searches), so I can't check whether "Jessica upskirt" (or whatever) gives you the same warning, but I suspect it would
Still, it's incredibly tasteless. It'd be just about as tasteless if I saw libseme or libuke or libyaoi in an apt/yum/etc. package requirements list.
It's not FUD or bullshit. Violet Blue isn't anyone I'd ca