Mozart and Bach Handel Subway Station Crime 353
Hugh Pickens writes "The Minneapolis Star-Tribune reports that transit officials have started to get a handel on subway crime when they started playing Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, and Strauss at the Lake Street light-rail station after neighborhood residents complained about the station becoming a haven for rowdy teens and vagrants. 'If it encourages some people to wander away because it's not their favorite type of music, I guess that's OK,' says Acting Transit Police Chief A.J. Olson. The program is modeled after one is Portland that has shown early signs of success, though the numbers are so small as to be statistically insignificant and even supporters of the music haven't reached a consensus on whether such environmental changes actually deter crime or just push it down the block. Not everyone is sold on using 'lovely lovely Ludwig Van' as a deterrent. 'Classical music lovers hate the fact that urban planners use classical music to disperse youth,' says Minneapolis City Council Member Gary Schiff. 'Does it chase crime away?' adds Olson. 'It's hard to measure. But I do think it makes it a more pleasant place to wait for a train.'"
So... (Score:2)
How much does it cost to do this and how much less does the city have to pay for security?
Appy-polly-loggies. (Score:5, Funny)
I woke up. The pain and sickness all over me like an animal. Then I realized what it was. The music coming up from the floor was our old friend, Ludwig Van, and the dreaded Ninth Symphony.
Re:So... (Score:5, Funny)
all this means is that anyone witnessing a crime there will feel like they're watching a Clockwork Orange.
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Or...as more likely, the music will draw Clockwork Orange nutballs out of the woodwork so you can feel as though you are part of a crime in Clockwork Orange....
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
No one young enough to be doing street crime REMEMBERS that movie.
Re:So... (Score:4, Funny)
"Ma'am, can you tell us when your purse was snatched?"
"Yes officer, it was just before the 'Alle Menschen werden Brüder' chorale in the fourth movement."
Re:So... (Score:4, Interesting)
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Yes the music is in the public domain, but not the performance. The need for music once again shows the folly of copyright. Forever music is naturally free .live performance is paid and there is no workable in-between for a parasite to thrive. Kicking the shit out of music industry lackeys in the subway is not only necessary, but encouraged.( The tourists will love it)
Re:So... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)
Yes the music is in the public domain, but not the performance.
The article says that
'Metro Transit bought the recordings for $150 from a company that offers the dead composers among "royalty-free" selections.'
I take that to mean it is a public domain performance, too.
Re:So... (Score:5, Interesting)
Teens in general are just full of primal emotions so they are attracted by rock and rap, when they get older and their primal forces cool down they start to enjoy classical music as it begins to reach them emotionally.
Now when kids are exposed to the music it gets their brain working as it exercises those emotions that are not much in practice. So they will leave as some how the exersize is too much for them to handle, or they will try to embrace it and giving more work to the brain and temporary quelling those primal urges.
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
There's plenty of classical music with emotional depth less than http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABWyXKT5qt4 [youtube.com], and plenty of rock with highly layered complexity.
I think a lot of it has to do with identity; teens are typically looking for something to distinguish themselves from their parents yet associate with their peers. A musical style which is not like previous music styles is an ideal medium to do so, especially if their parents hate it. This has been the case for many generations, including what we now call "classical music".
As a nice side effect, this produces a constant stream of musical (re)-invention with the occasional masterpiece that every person could enjoy.
The rest will be forgotten just like all mediocre musicians/composers/artists in times of classical music.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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Patronising, over-general and wrong, in my opinion.
Some rock and hip-hop is indeed very basic and primal, and good luck to 'em. The Stooges can get the juices flowing as effectively as Wagner (presumably this tube station isn't playing Ride Of The Valkyries in an attempt to calm teenagers down...).
Some rock and hip-hop is vastly more rhythmically, emotionally and tonally sophisticated than any of the popular Bach, Mozart, Handel, Beethoven era works. The post-Kid-A Radiohead albums would have many people sc
Re:So... (Score:4, Interesting)
Some rock and hip-hop is vastly more rhythmically, emotionally and tonally sophisticated than any of the popular Bach, Mozart, Handel, Beethoven era works. The post-Kid-A Radiohead albums would have many people scurrying back to The Magic Flute for something less emotionally and technically challenging. Jimi Hendrix throws more sophisticated chords into a single song than you'll hear in the whole of Don Giovanni.
Clearly, you haven't been listening closely enough. Of the entire catalog of rock/pop, close to 90% of it is in the Major keys of G, D, E, or A (pretty much in that order) and 100% uses progressions based on fifths, and exclusively with either ionian modes or a pentatonic scale, and rhythmically is always between 100bpm and 120bpm or multiples or derivitives of tempos in Moderato. In fact, I believe it is quite possible to reduce every single rock/pop song since to either one of David Bowie's offerings or that of Creedence Clearwater Revival. Thus, not more sophisticated, complex nor muscially richer than the classical compositions. Just try reducing Beethoven's works to that of Mozart's, or Mozart's to Bach's... certainly related, but not reducible.
btw, Hendrix is merely an exceptional blues guitar player. The Blues technically is reducable to one of two modes of Jazz, thus Jazz will be richer and more sophisticated than Blues, and you mention no Jazz artists.
And to suggest Kid Rock is a composer... is absurd. He's an entertainer and a businessman, recently a philanthropist... but I have serious doubts he will even achieve any footnote in history (no offense, Kid... you are loved).
Just to start with... (Score:3, Informative)
Money by Pink Floyd (7/4)
Four Sticks by Led Zeppelin (5/4)
Spoonman by Soundgarden (7/4)
Silhouette by Thrice (4/4 and 7/4)
Words in the Water and Hold Fast Hope bu Thrice (5/4)
Before the Lobotomy (middle section in 7/8)
March of the Pigs by Nine Inch Nails (29/8)
Time Like These by Foo Fighters (main riff in 7/8)
Paranoid
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Clearly a huge chunk of rock/pop is three-chord-trick blues-derivative in 4-4, but even if that's 95%, the remaining 5% is significant.
Thanks for making my point and countering your own. Can we reduce or describe classical compositions in the same manner? Probably not. Classical compositions reach a complexity that is simply not describable nor reducible the way modern pop/rock is.
Well, we'd have to do some kind of survey. But my instinct is that 90% of classical music is 4/4, 3/4 ditties using conventional chord progressions in exactly the same way as 90% of pop music is. We can find exceptions on both sides, but they don't represent the mainstream on either side. Pachabel's Canon is no more sophisticated than A Whiter Shade of Pale although I suppose it has the distinction of doing it first.
You are deluding yourself. Hendrix's chordal structures are no different than any other blues artists' chordal structures. Blues is merely a simplification of Jazz. His structures are NOT complex by any stretch of the imagination... (root, 3rd, 5th, or root, minor 3rd, 5th... a diminshed 7th now and again... and precious little else) ... To suggest that Hendrix's music is more complex or richer than Bach's is patently ridiculous, on its face.
I'll maintain that it's more harmonically complex than the popular Mozart works (you'll note
Re:So... (Score:5, Interesting)
Obviously this conversation isn't doesn't merit my trawling through 50 years of post-rock'n'roll music finding the good stuff.
I attended a Welsh National Opera performance of Don Giovanni late last year, and I enjoyed it. But, it's the pop music of it's time and it is decidedly populist in its ambitions. Simple story. Nice tunes. Harmonious backing in straight major and minor chords. Job done.
Hendrix habitually threw 7ths, 9ths, augmented 4ths into his chords; intervals which (apart from possibly the occasional 7th) Mozart's audiences would never have tolerated.
I was careful to limit my claim to the "popular Bach, Mozart, Handel and Beethoven works", because I'm sure there were works of greater sophistication written in that period and maybe by those people. But their popular works are popular because they're populist. And what makes them populist is that they are unchallenging.
Re:So... (Score:4, Interesting)
Augmented 4th? When a guitarist does it, it's called an 11th. And it's almost always augmented. Otherwise it's a sus4.
Adding the seventh to a perfect cadence has been quite common since the 16th century, so I would hardly call that novel. Ninths and major sevenths are a fairly common occurrence in baroque music, though primarily as a passing dissonance for dramatic effect. The same could be said for 11th's and 13th's, too.
I don't think you are consistent by comparing "popular" classical works with the likes of Hendrix. If you take the whole of popular music today, you have maybe 80% of them using the same four or five chords (or two chords in some godforsaken cases). Most musicians are not Hendrix, and Hendrix is hardly "unchallenging."
So let's not pretend that Romantic music with its wild variations in tone and volume, and Classical music with its deceptive cadences and Neapolitan chords are anywhere near as boring and monotonous as the vast majority of crap that passes for "popular" music these days. You can either compare accessible music of both time periods, or cutting-edge brain-melting bad-ass-shit from both time periods.
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Your proposition is interesting, but wrong.
For instance, there's absolutely no influence on Chuck Berry's Johnny B Goode (1958) or Elvis Presley's Heartbreak Hotel (1956) from Terry Riley's In C (1964) or Steve Reich's Come Out (1965). You're right that minimalism influenced a lot of later bands, but there's a clear tradition (as far as anyone can tell, developed mostly by African-Americans) in both rock and rap music stemming from blues that has little if anything to do with the minimalist composers.
The biggest barrier to classical music influencing kids is not the complexity of the emotional content, it's that there are frequently no words (which prevents a lot of people from thinking they understand it) and that popular culture has put a big effort into making it seem like classical music is only for dorks and old people. This is why I like introducing kids to heavy metal versions of Vivaldi.
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I would be interested in heavy metal versions of Vivaldi, too. Links, please?
Re:So... (Score:4, Interesting)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ETgswXg1E [youtube.com]
Possibly the nadir of Western civilization.
Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWx_GyTLGmQ [youtube.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdp2hEsc2kg [youtube.com]
There are plenty of others. Actually, Vivaldi really lends itself to rocking out - he's all about a pounding along to a strong beat. Although not quite as much of a star musician as Beethoven, what with his crazy hair, deafness, and syphilis.
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I studied classical music quite seriously in my college days, and still write and perform a fair amount of it.
My point was that popular music almost universally includes vocals as the musical focus, whereas classical music does not. Many casual listeners of most musical genres focus solely on the words because that's what they understand best, and because symphonies and sonatas and most classic dance pieces don't have words, there's nothing for these listeners to relate to. In addition, these listeners ofte
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More people willing to ride the subway means more revenue.
What about the people (of all ages) less willing to ride the subway because of the irritating music?
Re:So... (Score:5, Interesting)
Every train station I've seen, including simple platforms, has most of the equipment for this anyway. In this case you've just got music playing the whole time and some kind of ducker to quash the music when the announcements play.
They may not know for sure if it's working yet, but this seems like one of the least complicated or expensive options to try out. It certainly beats hiring more security, the presence of which only makes things seem worse.
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In Japan they've been playing music in the Toyoko subway for some time now. They also have a theme for each station and the music plays to announce the departure of the trains. A rider on the train can know what station they are at by the music. The Takadanobaba station plays the theme to Tetsuwan Atom (Astroboy) since that is where Tezuka set Atom's birthplace.
Handel..an english word? (Score:5, Informative)
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That one, or "Haendel". Or maybe simply "handle". In the current form this isn't really a play on words.
Re:Handel..an english word? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Handel..an english word? (Score:5, Funny)
It may initially drive them away. But as they are leaving, they warn that they'll be bach.
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If they come Bach, a Tazer and a bit Mo' ZART should do the trick.
Re:Handel..an english word? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Handel..an english word? (Score:5, Funny)
.. or back Orff.
Re:Handel..an english word? (Score:5, Funny)
Do we really have to liszt all the puns?
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Wollt ihr den totalen Grieg?
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We're Raveling in our cleverness this morning.
Re:Handel..an english word? (Score:5, Funny)
Would you rather we put them on the chopin block?
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It certainly seems to cause some miscreants to turn Bach around and walk away.
It's punny... (Score:5, Funny)
What? (Score:2, Informative)
[...]has shown early signs of success, though the numbers are so small as to be statistically insignificant [...]
In other words, no significant effect of the music on crime statistics has been measured. Or am I missing something?
What, "What"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Since when do the real numbers matter? What really matters is that some politician has shown to "Fight against Crime" (note the capital letters, those are important).
People demand that action is taken against the nuisances and crime. Whether the action actually works is really not so important, as the results of pretty much every election around the world show.
A feeling of safety is far more emotional than rational. So, go away with your statistics, and leave us emotional non-rational people alone.
And obviously, in about a year from now, we demand Action against Crime. Again.
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"Or am I missing something?"
Yep, the copyright has expired for those songs, that's the real reason.
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[...]has shown early signs of success, though the numbers are so small as to be statistically insignificant [...]
In other words, no significant effect of the music on crime statistics has been measured. Or am I missing something?
Does the MAFIAA know about this?
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In other words, no significant effect of the music on crime statistics has been measured.
It means they have seen an effect, but it's just one city, and a small number of people. Theoretically it could be attributed to something else, like say a change in air quality.
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or just to plain old random chance.
All that statisitically significant means is "if the null hypothosis* is true the chances of results as bad or worse (for the null hypothosis) as those we obtained are below a given value".
It does not tell you what the correct alternate hypothosis is nor does it tell you with certainty that the null hypothosis is wrong.
And in particular finding something isn't statistically significant doesn't nessacerally mean the null hypothosis is right.
* The null hypothosis basically s
Lower crime rate is a bonus (Score:5, Insightful)
The first and foremost advantage is to have a pleasant wait for your train. I would love to have classical music at my train stations.
If it can act as a deterrent for inamical people, I take it as a bonus.
Re:Lower crime rate is a bonus (Score:5, Informative)
They've done this at a few London Underground stations since 2005 [guardian.co.uk] and since 2004 [bbc.co.uk] on the Tyne and Wear Metro.
In London, the music was played over the existing announcement system's speakers, so it was horribly distorted. Fortunately, it was only around the station entrance, not the actual platforms, so I could wait in peace.
Re:Lower crime rate is a bonus (Score:4, Informative)
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For some reason groups of menacing youths don't hang around on the Japanese metro, so there is no need for music. Perhaps we should look at fixing the cause rather than treating the symptom.
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From what I understand they prefer to ride silly-looking motorcycles around.
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I think the horrible speakers are an important factor in Minneapolis as well.
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That is provided the do it consistently. There is a convenience store on the west island of Montreal that does this. Outside they were playing a nice symphony on shockingly good speakers but inside they were playing annoying pop music. Never before in my life have I found standing outside a store so much more enjoyable than inside.
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I suddenly have visions of A Clockwork Orange-style brainwashing ruining perfectly good Beethoven for ultraviolent youths.
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Whenever they hear classical music afterwards, it will remind them of their time in copland.
The new Superhero team has been formed (Score:3, Funny)
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Not a new - or a particularly great - idea (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't a particularly new idea. I know that certain shopping centres here in the UK have been using it for quite some time.
I've got mixed feelings. It's certainly unpleasant to have large groups of feral youths hanging around shopping centres and in principle, something that encourages them to be elsewhere without much fuss is a good thing. On the other hand... it just shifts the problem around. I'd rather have the gang of feral youths stood menacingly inside the brightly lit CCTV-infested shopping centre than in the unlit, unguarded car park outside.
At least using music for this is better than some of the alternatives. I know that one idea that was briefly used was high pitched noise emitters - the theory being that with young people generally being able to hear higher ranges than adults, only they would be irritated by the noise. I objected to this one very strongly indeed - the noise was outright painful (my hearing is odd - I'm bad at sorting conversation from background noise, but seem to have retained my ability to hear very high ranges) and it was indiscriminate. It was offensive to the "good kid" going shopping for their parents as it was to the feral youth looking for his next mugging victim. I seem to remember that particular trick had to be pulled due to legal reasons.
I guess I also have some gut concerns about whether this impinges on rights such as freedom of assembly. I guess if it's being used on private property, then it's fine. On subways... that seems a bit more morally dubious.
And as for the choice of music... I don't think classical music lovers should be particularly offended. Though as somebody who is relatively fond of classical music, I will admit that taken out of place, it can be intrusive. Anybody reading this who commutes through London's Victoria Station will be aware that every few weeks they have some opera singer (and supporting instrumentation) there, collecting money for a cancer research charity. I know it's for a good cause and I shouldn't whinge but... when you're waiting for a delayed train and just want to get home after a long day, the singing, while perfectly "cultured", due to its volume and pitch, can be as intrusive and offensive as blazingly loud gangsta rap would be.
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Here is a link for a previous slashdot article on something similar:
http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/03/04/0258221/using-classical-music-as-a-form-of-social-control [slashdot.org]
But maybe it is in fact just driving the youth away and not just criminal types:
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/05/11/30/0021211/driving-away-teens-with-high-frequency-noise [slashdot.org]
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But maybe it is in fact just driving the youth away and not just criminal types
Fine by me, children are obnoxious.
Now if they could play something to get rid of all the slow walkers too, that would be perfect!
Pushers. No, not that kind; the kind that shove.
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They've been playing classical music at Brixton tube station for at least two or three years, on and off, and only in the evening I think.
Unfortunately, the PA system is so uniformly shitty that it doesn't sound much better than the tinny music coming out of kids mobiles. Would be much nicer if they could give the lady violinist with dreadlocks who I often see at Stockwell a permanent spot.
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You know, Those youths can buy milk in those shopping centres, and if you couple that with the classical music, well, this could all turn ugly like clockwork. I just don't think that kind of approach is very fruitful in the long run.
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Re:Not a new - or a particularly great - idea (Score:4, Informative)
I do know that studies have shown that playing classical music in a retail outlet tends to increase sales (I am sure that there are stores which target particular demographics where this would not be true). I, also, seem to recall that it reduced shoplifting, but that may have been a comment by a store security expert rather than the result of a study.
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[...] On the other hand... it just shifts the problem around. I'd rather have the gang of feral youths stood menacingly inside the brightly lit CCTV-infested shopping centre than in the unlit, unguarded car park outside.
And maybe that's the solution: instead of playing classical music to chase away the 'feral youths', attract them to an area under video camera surveillance with gansta rap. Then if anything happens, immediately dispatch the police car that was just out of sight nearby.
Ok, as is that plan won't really work<g>. What about creating places where they would listen to music and do interesting stuff? Maybe you could call them youth centers?
Brian Eno (Score:2)
I would also go with Eno's "Music for Airports". A wonderful piece that does wonders with the stressful atmosphere of contemporary travel.
Re:Brian Eno (Score:5, Informative)
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Won't work (Score:5, Funny)
Just moves the crime so its haydn somewhere else.
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You think you're so funny, but loitering in chopin complexes is no joke
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You think you're so funny, but loitering in chopin complexes is no joke
It's not very high on my lizst.
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To track where they go, youths will also be added to a government watch liszt.
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Yup, just a matter of time before they are bach and chopin some old lady purse...
Re:Won't work (Score:4, Interesting)
Hate it. (Score:4, Informative)
I'm 38 years old. Definitely not a troublemaker. I have a legitimate reason to be waiting at train stations.
And I hate Handel and Mozart. Why should I be subjected to it?
Also, I can clearly hear those high pitched "mosquito" tones that are meant to disperse young people. Again, why should I be subjected to it?
And what about law abiding young people?
Re:Hate it. (Score:4, Funny)
And what about law abiding young people?
A tiny minority. Most youths are like the scary ones on TV, always burning stuff and getting into trouble you know :-P
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I am 31 tears old, and i really, really hate pop and rock... why am i subjected to it at each store?
I think the difference is that shops are private enterprises and are free to attract or deter potential customers with whatever ambience they see fit. If a trendy clothes shop wants to keep squares out with pounding R&B, so be it.
Depending on where you live, railways may or not be private enterprises -- but they're granted a monopoly by the local government, and they shouldn't be deterring any legitimate users. Yes: silence would be preferable.
Keeps the Lawyers Away, Too (Score:3)
We may be on to something here... what can we play in public places to keep bank execs away? Anyone have audio transcripts of Congressional inquiries into the subprime mortgage crisis [gpoaccess.gov]? I'd like to play that loudly on my phone the next time I'm standing in line at the bank... if everyone did that, it would be better than a sea of Guy Fawkes masks.
Like Anti-bacterial Soap (Score:3)
Uhm.... (Score:2)
"...such environmental changes actually deter crime or just push it down the block. Not everyone is sold on using 'lovely lovely Ludwig Van' as a deterrent."
So somewhere, some when there is a person who believes a little Bethoven will so move teenage youth to give up all crime, and become law abiding citizens. And they say the perpetual youth are the delusional.
Haha it does indeed scare teens away. (Score:2)
For some reason, people have an apathy to this kind of music when they are young. when older, its different.
A question of class (Score:3)
Hopefully, over time, this will attract a better class of muggers.
Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore
Galloping through the sward
Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore
And his horse Concorde
He steals from the rich
And gives to the poor
Mr. Moore, Mr. Moore, Mr. Moore
wah wah (Score:2)
Oh, God. Another group of fucking elitists. Instead of being happy more people are exposed to classical music they're going to complain. "No! Don't use our favorite thing on the masses! They aren't sophisticated enough to appreciate this music." They're just like the Apple fans upset the new iPhone doesn't look significantly different from the previous model so
Change of crime statistics (Score:2)
They're just hoping to get a better class of criminals.
Well, it worked in a clockwork orange (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:3)
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They could, as an alternative, start playing avant-modern classical, like Penderecki, Webern, Xenakis. The subway station with the least crime is the one with no patrons at all.
True. I would also suggest Nickelback, but that would probably have the reverse effect and actually cause crime.
Keeping away the teens - with light (Score:5, Interesting)
What they did was install a light usually used by dermatologists which highlights unclean skin -- pimples and the like.
The teens stayed away.
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...subway.. elevator.. is there a real difference?
Elevators go nearly straight.
--
If the rails were laid end-to-end, it would be a big improvement.
Re:Kids have no taste in music? (Score:5, Funny)
Love in a subway is something very different from love in an elevator.
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Clearly the Ludovico Technique is required to make this subway program actually work.
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"sorry; no time for the in-out, love. just come to read the meter!"
Re:nice. age racism on the rise. (Score:4, Informative)
I was going to contradict - how wrong I was! (Score:2)
Whomever chose the music library is definitely showing racially-preferential tendencies.
Your comment educated me. I was about to point out that there were not any black composers, but decided to check. how wrong I was [homestead.com]. Listen to this beautiful composition [youtube.com] as an example.