Poll Finds 23 Percent of Texans Think Obama is Muslim 562
A University of Texas poll has found that 23 percent of Texans are convinced that Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama is a Muslim. Only 45 percent of the people polled correctly identified Obama as a Protestant Christian. Nationwide, the number of people who believe in the "Secret Muslim Conspiracy" is about the same as those who believe that the moon landing was faked (5-10 percent), which makes the high numbers in Texas unusual.
Well, as they say... (Score:5, Insightful)
Texas is a whole 'nother country.
They have great ice cream (Blue Bell), great water parks (Schlitterbahn), nice lakes and neat caverns. But they also have a lot of insular communities in the country (I grew up in one...not fun if you disagree with the pack/herd).
And even if he was (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:5, Insightful)
Boy, that's easy. Let me count the ways:
Most people agreed with Greenspan that derivatives shouldn't be regulated. Greenspan himself no longer has that view (and he's a staunch libertarian).
Most people (in America) thought there were WMDs in Iraq before the invasion.
Most people opposed the $700 billion bailout. I've yet to find a serious economist or capitalist who believes that no action was a valid alternative--we were a hair away from a complete financial halt in the credit/security market which would have quickly halted our entire economy. But, of course, most people haven't taken basic economic courses (much less advanced ones).
And so on. This is why we don't live in a pure Democracy but elect our peers to lead the rest of us for a number of years--the majority isn't always right.
woah woah woah (Score:3, Insightful)
Stop the judgment bus there buddy!
I don't like Muslim *ideology*.
I don't like the idea that I must submit to Allah. Does this make me hateful? A bigot?
The President has the ability to veto and make decisions, and these in turn affect me, you and the world. What is his or her ideology? Are they pro women's rights? A Muslim, holding to Sharia law, sees women as less-than-human.
I can't support such an ideology.
Re:Barak Hussein Obama IS a Muslim (Score:2, Insightful)
He also said anonymous cowards are all muslim, by your logic YOU are now muslim, moron.
I guess I'm not suprised (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And even if he was (Score:3, Insightful)
To play devils advocate (or rather, idiot's advocate, don't want to slander the devil) that WOULD mean he did lie to the american public, he's said many times he's not. It would be a shocking coverup that would really shake my opinion of him, not to mention make people wonder what other ridiculous right-wing lies about him are true.
So in and of itself, that wouldn't mean anything, and should not be a question. His response would have been. Kind of like clinton: the adultry didn't really matter and should never have been asked, but he did lie under oath.
Note that this is all hypothetical, the man is NOT muslim
Forget black or female president... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:3, Insightful)
That is not a mainstream branch of economics (for a darn good reason). It's for similar reasons that they support that derivatives weren't regulated in the first place.
Re:Barak Hussein Obama IS a Muslim (Score:3, Insightful)
shouldn't it be "was"?
Barack Hussein Obama [wikipedia.org] (aka Barack Obama, Sr) passed away when Barack Obama II [wikipedia.org] was 21.
He might up there with the 72 Virginians [google.com] having a beer and discussing his son's political career.
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:3, Insightful)
Quoting the austrian school in serious economic discussions is like quoting creationists or flat-earthers. It's pseudo-science to a degree that real economists are embarrassed by them.
Re:woah woah woah (Score:2, Insightful)
And I'm not big on Christian ideology either. Why should women be quiet in church? Why do I have to marry before having sex? Why should I give 10% of my earnings to the church? Why should I condemn homosexuals and treat them as inferior? etc etc.
An extremist christian is just as bad as an extremist muslim.
Fuck them both, I say. I'd rather have someone with intellectual integrity in charge. Someone who refuses to believe in imaginary friends and unprovable teachings. How else am I supposed to trust his judgement?
Besides, it's obvious that american politicians these days only profess certain beliefs in order to garner more popular support from idiots who have forgotten what the constitution says about separation of church and state.
Re:woah woah woah (Score:3, Insightful)
A Muslim, holding to Sharia law, sees women as less-than-human.
I can't support such an ideology.
A Christian, holding to the values espoused in the New Testament, sees women similarly.
Luckily, the FSM has a place for all in his noodly sauce.
Re:woah woah woah (Score:5, Insightful)
"I don't like the idea that I must submit to Allah. Does this make me hateful? A bigot?"
Which is why the Constitution prohibits a state religion. And at any rate, the President does not legitimately have the power to declare law, only enforce it.
"The President has the ability to veto and make decisions, and these in turn affect me, you and the world. What is his or her ideology? Are they pro women's rights? A Muslim, holding to Sharia law, sees women as less-than-human."
Is this much different from the fundamentalist Christain view that women belong in the home (a view that itself is far more moderate compared to what the Bible says about women's rights)? Just like everyone doesn't agree with the Christain fundamentalists yet still claims to believe in the religion, not everyone who labels themselves as Muslim necessarily has the same strict interpretation. Not to mention that if this kind of thing does happen, the President risks losing his or her re-election because of the small amount of Muslims in the country, many of which might not even agree with his or her specific ideology.
Truth Revealed (Score:5, Insightful)
If nothing else, this year's campaigns have shown me how easily manipulated the general public is. It's not just people in Texas, but close friends of mine. I can't even vocalize how shocked I was to have someone I always believed to be an intelligent person confide in me his belief that Barack Obama is a "secret Muslim".
I can't believe how often and with how much confidence I see pundits, news anchors, editors, and journalists make claims about one candidate and simultaneously brush off exactly the same claim about their favored candidate. I mean to watch Bill Kristol essentially say, with a smile on his face, "It's only socialist if a Democrat does it." or "They're only radical associates if we're talking about Barack Obama." and then brush off the entire conversation the moment Palin's associations are mentioned.
It makes me think of one of Dr. Phil's favorite phrases "Right Fighters". They don't want to do what works, they want to be right. 95% of the people in this country wouldn't care if the candidate they've chosen blew up the whole fucking world, they'd never admit to being wrong. They'd just smile as their skin boiled off and say "Yeah, well your guy would have been worse."
I'm ashamed to even participate in this process. I'm ashamed to be saddled with the burden of even having to share a species with Sean Hannity. I don't want the other species of the world to make the mistake of thinking we've got anything in common. More than anything else, I think this election has just made me feel hugely ashamed. It doesn't matter who wins, humanity already lost.
The political interests now directly control the media. Journalists aren't even reporting or investigating anymore, they work for lobbyists and politicians while pretending to be informing the people. It's sad that comedians like Jon Stewart are so much closer to reporting reality than Fox News or CNN. As I'm sure everyone has now watched, they discussed Marsha Brady on CNN like she's a real person. That's what this whole thing is about. People who can't differentiate between reality and fantasy. Of course so many people believe Obama is a secret Muslim, anyone who thinks the Brady Bunch is a documentary is prone to believe anything.
Re:Not Muslim, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, he's not Muslim, but his attending a rather radical black theology church with a rather strange pastor combined with other "interesting" seeming Muslim-sympathetic beliefs or actions do seem to point to a non-full disclosure of his beliefs, etc.
Um, you haven't read his book, have you? The first one, titled "Dreams from my Father", describes in detail how he was referred to Rev. Wright's church and what it meant to him, and described his transition from being Christian only in name to acquiring a belief system. The second one, "The Audacity of Hope", was named after the name of the first sermon he heard at Rev Wright's church and discusses the progression of his thinking and approach to government and belief. He may be accused of a lot of things, but lack of full disclosure CAN NOT be one of them. His entire life is, quite literally, an open book available for all to read.
Obama is the type of person who can freely discuss ideas with a great variety of people without adopting them. He especially values differing opinions, which I like as something that will help prevent any "failures of imagination" in his administration. Rev. Wright to him was a focal point for many disparate beliefs and influences, and despite some incendiary language helped him see many issues more clearly. In other words, Rev Wright was more of a lens than the source of light for Obama (at least that's my impression from his books).
I think this is why McCain has rightly shied away from challenging Obama's beliefs. Because they actually are one of Obama's strengths, especially compared to McCain's own.
Re:woah woah woah (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I guess I'm not suprised (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem I have with the Christian Conservatives is they display little in the way of Christian understanding and compassion, and the way they literally interpret the Bible and think they are good Christians scares the shit out of me. Dare I say it, they sound just as bad, if not worse, than the Islamic fundamentalists they rail against.
Real question (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I guess I'm not suprised (Score:1, Insightful)
In a market economy, that's a clear example of not paying sufficiently.
If I can make more money sitting on my ass in a 7-11, why would I pick cabbage?
You could argue that it requires illegal workers... or you could argue that the economics of picking cabbage simply don't line up in that region.
Re:In other news, Texas secesseds (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't worry. Those of us in Austin will lead the insurgency against the Republicans...
just as soon as we do a couple of more bong hits.
Re:In other news, Texas secesseds (Score:1, Insightful)
The US needs Texas more than Texas needs the US...
Re:I guess I'm not suprised (Score:3, Insightful)
By keeping costs (thus prices) artificially low by hiring illegal migrant workers, consumption of cabbage is high. If you cut down on illegal migrant workers, price for cabbage will go up. One of two things will happen:
Civilization will not collapse because the costs of farming cabbage go up.
(That being said, I'm not necessarily in favor of cracking down on migrant workers, just pointing these things out.)
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:3, Insightful)
Give me a break. Why is it that any time someone disagrees with someone they call the other person a liar? There is a difference between being wrong and lying you know. This sort of rhetoric is what makes it impossible to have a debate on anything these days. It reminds me of how a child argues.
Re:I guess I'm not suprised (Score:5, Insightful)
Dare I say it, they sound just as bad, if not worse, than the Islamic fundamentalists they rail against.
It's fundementalism / extremism that is the brain fart, it doesn't really matter what religion or ideology they've latched on to.
It was an epiphany that came when I realized that people who dig up bad shit in the quran are actively looking for bad shit which they can use to justify hating muslims. They are just the other side of the coin of islamic fundamentalists who dig up the same bad shit in the quran so that they can justify hating non-muslims.
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:4, Insightful)
Give me a break. Why is it that any time someone disagrees with someone they call the other person a liar? There is a difference between being wrong and lying you know.
Because his association of austrian economics and flat-earthers was an obvious attempt to deceive. His comment never had an argument based on logic, science or history which could only pass as "wrong", because it wasn't the product of an honest mistake. It was a demonstrably false attempt to ridicule which deserved to be called upon.
I'm not going to tip toe around this matter just for the sake of being politically correct.
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:2, Insightful)
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore we must do this!"
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:4, Insightful)
"It reminds me of how a child argues"
As a person who used to be a child I strongly disagree. Most children argue nonsensically as do most adults. Being nonsensical is not inherently childlike but is just a part of the human condition. Adults merely have the education to make their nonsensical arguments more elaborate.
Re:And even if he was (Score:3, Insightful)
"What does it matter you bigoted, hateful bastards?"
There is every reason for one who is not a Muslim to oppose Islam, just as they would oppose a toxic secular ideology like Communism. Why should a toxic belief system get a free pass because it is a superstition? Religions may be opposed for perfectly logical reasons such as the societies they produce, their inherent demand for theocracy, etc. Islam does not offer me more personal freedom, does impose social restrictions to which I object, and in practice insists on theocracy where there are sufficient Muslims to tip the balance in their favor.
Re:Forget black or female president... (Score:4, Insightful)
"when we can truly have separation of church and state."
Church demands control of state because Deity must rule man (conveniently enough, through his human representatives).
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:5, Insightful)
I really don't know why everybody is making such an issue over this shit.
Putting your hand over your heart during the PoA isn't a requirement in any manual I've seen. Most of us have just been programmed to do this from when we were young, but if you think about it, it's just a superficial gesture. Some do it, & some don't. Get over it!
As for the lapel pin, that is a republican thing. They thought it up. It also means absolutely nothing. It is almost sacrilege the way they make such an issue over it too. Considering how badly they have fucked the country up over the past 12 years.
I don't wear a lapel pin. I'm sure you don't either. Can we let it all go now and just keep moving forward?
Re:And even if he was (Score:4, Insightful)
Catholicism is nutty (I was raised in the Church), but there is nothing in modern-day Catholicism (esp. as practiced in the USA, as it is different than that practiced elsewhere; US catholics tend to ignore things they don't agree with, such as the prohibition on contraception) which requires a theocracy. In fact, I can't think of a single Christian-dominated country which could be called a theocracy, though many, many countries are Christian-dominated. The same is not true for Islam; it is an integral part of that religion that the government be a theocracy, and that infidels pay a tribute.
As for transforming the US into a Sharia Law state, there is nothing irrational about that at all. Have you been asleep for the past 8 years? Have you ever heard of an Executive Order? The President can make any new law he wants and enforce it. No one can stop him; he's the executive and the commander-in-chief. The Supreme Court could issue a ruling, but who's going to enforce it? Andrew Jackson showed the futility of that.
Re:I guess I'm not suprised (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe if we stopped paying people to not work (welfare), we could put those people to work doing crap jobs like picking cabbage.
Re:I guess I'm not suprised (Score:3, Insightful)
The price is fair to the illegals. The ability to live off of it is not the only factor that makes a wage "fair". If you could choose a living wage flipping burgers at McDonalds, or the same wage standing out in the hot sun picking cabbage all day, which would you choose? If people flock to McDonalds, and let the cabbage rot, it's clear that the wages paid to cabbage workers must simply go up. Do you really not understand how the market works?
If it were worth it to them, people would do it. No job is "beneath" a person if the price is right. Do you think the town of Buttfuck Alaska has to import migrant workers to be garbage men? Do you think they just don't have garbage men at all, because everyone would think it "beneath" them? Of course not. People do undesirable work because it pays well. If it doesn't pay well, nobody takes the job.
You're taking what I said out of context. They're available and willing to do the work if the wage were right. But you're mixing the hypothetical (people would do the work) with the actual (these jobs are currently filled by illegal workers). The job openings don't exist, so it's not going to affect unemployment. If illegal workers were eliminated, farms would be forced to raise wages to fill the positions (or go out of the cabbage business, which would happen anyway for many cabbage farmers if the price for cabbage were to go up), which would lower unemployment rates.
Of course Obama's not a muslim. (Score:3, Insightful)
He's a member of a bigoted, ethnocentric, racist CHRISTIAN church.
Re:Not Muslim, but... (Score:1, Insightful)
He's also a college professor (constitional law) and a community organizer.
I get a different read off Obama. Some people judge their success by how much they can do for themselves other people judge their success by how much they can do for others.
McCain, the read I get off him is that he's doing it partially out of force of habit and partially because he likes being the big dog in the room. Obama, though, strikes me as different. I get the sense that he judges his success based on how much he can do for others.
You may be right that Obama will turn out to be just like every other politician but I get a different read off him. I get the sense of a sincerity and seriousness that has been lacking in pretty much every politician I've ever listened to from Reagan, through the Clintons and Bushes all the way up to McCain and Palin.
With Obama, I get the sense that he tailors what he says to the voters but that there is an underlying substance. With McCain, for example, I get the sense that he's saying what will get votes without regard to any underlying truth or substance.
I get the impression that Obama understands that just keeping poor people fed and sheltered isn't going to solve the problem: that, ultimately, advances in both science/technology and our understanding of society will be required to solve the problem of poverty.
Obama, the college professor, want to find new solutions to problems of poverty because Obama, the community organizer, judges himself on the basis of how much he can do for others.
Re:Truth Revealed (Score:5, Insightful)
I doubt you're really interested in expanding your mind but, since I feel like taking a break from work, I'll venture to suggest a slightly less simple-minded world view.
Really? So would you care to elaborate on the difference between the Philippines (dominated by Christians) and Indonesia (dominated by Muslims)?
That may depend on your definition of worst.
Let's start with a well-known, but rather trivial, example: clothes. There are a couple Muslim countries in the world that require women to wear burkas. Pretty bad, right? Clothes are a matter of individual freedom, right? So, try walking around naked in the USA. See how far you get before you're a convicted sex offender facing a lifetime of severe persecution. We talk about the USA and all of a sudden clothes are a matter of community standards (rather than individual freedom). Oh, the problem in the Muslim countries is discrimination: that they have different dress standards for men and women? Well, try walking around topless in the USA as a woman and see how far you get.
But let's move on to a more serious example: forcing your religion on other people. It turns out that there are young men that live such limited lives that they conclude that their own culture and religion is so superior to other religions and cultures that it must imposed on people in foreign countries by force. So, these young men travel to other countries and kill people in those other countries in an attempt to force them to adopt the "superior" culture and religion. How many simple-minded young men from the USA are currently killing people in the Middle East in an attempt to force people in the Middle East to adopt a more American culture and religion? A couple hundred thousand - quite a few. Now, how many people from the Middle East are killing people in the USA in an attempt to force people in the USA to adopt a more Middle Eastern culture and religion. Not very many. Maybe a few dozen - depending how you count.
But let's take a step back and look at the specific situation in the Middle East. You've got a bunch of immigrants from Europe and the USA who have moved to the Middle East, driven out most of the locals and set up a country that is explicitly proclaimed to be a country for an ethnic group of people other than most people in the Middle East. At present, this new little country of European and American immigrants has set up a system very similar to South African apartheid to beat up on the locals.
Why? A lot of it has to do with certain aspects of fundamentalist Christian and Jewish religions. The Jewish fundamentalists believe they were given the land by their god. The fundamentalist Christians believe that they've got to set this little country up to bring about some kind of apocalyptic "end-times" scenario.
Either way, to people in the Middle East, it looks like they're getting beat up on by people who are drawn to the worst aspects of Christianity and Judaism. Of course, if I've convinced you of the evils of religion generally, you might try going to live in one of the last remaining communist countries that favors atheism: say, North Korea.
Houston, we have a problem.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I guess I'm not suprised (Score:1, Insightful)
Society doesn't pay people welfare to not-work.
It pays people already out of work welfare to not-rob-your-house.
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps it is time we stop being robots and realize that wearing of a flag or posing in a certain way during a song or some bullshit feel good 'pledge' is nothing more than a motion. If a person not putting their hand over some internal organ makes you wonder about that person's patriotism or 'respect' for traditions, it seems it says more about you than them. Questioning a person's decisions because of that makes you look like a simpleton. But at least you aren't alone. I guess intentional ignorance truly is bliss.
Questioning anyone's patriotism and deciding it isn't as genuine or as true as yours is one of the foundations of fascism.
Sorry, but too many people have died to let ignorant people take us down that road.
Re:woah woah woah (Score:3, Insightful)
McCain isn't taking Palin seriously; she hasn't actually done anything, has she?
His arrogance in picking her is indicitave of his sexism - he was hoping that Clinton women would give up all their principles and vote for a ticket opposed to what Clinton stood for.
After all, politics is the realm of men. Women will just go "OMG A WOMAN" and vote for her, right?
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:4, Insightful)
Hard to call it paranoia, when Whitey rigs a legal system that puts 12 percent of black men in 20s and early 30s behind bars.
America is a bigger racist prison state than South Africa ever was -It just has better public relations because the bloody Boers are in the majority.
If all you ever read is WHITE men's opinions of BLACK life and reality, I am sure you will consider yourself informed. But you will never KNOW.
Signed,
A LOVE Supreme.
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course religious freedom doesn't give you the right to stone people or sacrifice people. But just as Muslims have extremists, the US has a certain segment of Christians or just plain old flag wavers that are becoming extreme too.
The Muslim religion and America are being hurt by extremists and I think in both cases the moderates aren't doing enough to silence the nut cases.
Re:How could 63% of people be wrong? (Score:4, Insightful)
And no, it is not jingoism in any way.
Actually, that's exactly what it is. Patriotism is loving your country. Wearing a flag pin has no bearing on that, and given that it is the Republicans who have been making a big deal about it and pushing the idea that not wearing one makes one less patriotic and the Republicans have been actively engaged in treason the entire time, it's damn obvious that wearing a stupid fucking pin has nothing to do with patriotism. Refusing to wear one on the grounds that it associates you with traitors *is* a patriotic act.
So, yes, all it is is jingoism. You haven't said anything that would counter that fact.
If you think wearing stupid pins is patriotism, you're an idiot and I have to ask, why do you hate America so much that you'd try and sell ignorant empty gestures as patriotic?