AMD Offers Women Geek Dating Advice 269
Blacklaw writes "It appears AMD has decided to branch out from integrated circuits and enter the romance market with a handy guide for girls to land themselves a geeky guy. From the article: 'In a blog post written by Leslie Sobon, the company's vice president of marketing, Sobon describes her life in the largely male-dominated world of technology as being "mostly surrounded by guys all day," but says: "I can tell you that — in general — technical guys are pretty cool," and offers advice on how girls can land a geek guy. Although clearly meant in a lighthearted way, Sobon's missive serves to patronize both her company's customers — who, we learn, are socially inept and bad dressers — and women, who apparently can't understand technology and need to find a nice man who can "fix the TV, your PC, and the sprinkler system" along with other magical item s far too complex for the poor female brain to comprehend.'"
It's funny - laugh (Score:5, Insightful)
Dear everyone,
Please stop taking every so damned seriously.
Thank you,
Byron
She tries too hard (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, if a nice girl's just willing to strike up a conversation with us, she's already miles ahead in my book without having to learn how to parrot stupid lines about x86 vs. ARM.
Double standard sucks (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Double standard sucks (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, we are publicly mocking her. That's some sort of penalty, right?
Given that we're publicly mocking her on the Internet I'd say it's just business as usual.
Patronize? Really? (Score:3, Insightful)
Although clearly meant in a lighthearted way, Sobon's missive serves to patronize both her company's customers...
No, no it doesn't....It's only offensive if you're a soulless, insecure, sensitive little bitch. Get over it.
Re:Women can land any man they want (Score:5, Insightful)
Why women "in tech" don't trust each other... (Score:3, Insightful)
Because if she ain't an engineer, she's just coming to work to try to meet one. Kinds sad, if you ask me.
And how do you tell the difference? Between an actual female engineer and gals like this who can't even play one on TV?
Well, there's those degrees and certs to start with, not to mention the actual knowledge and actual accomplishments.
Unfortunately, there are so few of us that organizations have given up on discerning the difference.
I am very wary of women "in tech" who simply don't know anything except how to pander to *male* geeks.
Re:Women can land any man they want (Score:2, Insightful)
They don't have to work at getting someone to have sex with them or hang out briefly with the hope of sex; true. If a woman wants someone to hang around and care for her (hey, it may be sexist, but screw you, there's still a ton of women that want just this) then they have to work pretty darned hard at it, especially as they get to 30 and beyond. Incidentally there would be more divorced women who quit working at this in the US if the divorce laws were even between the sexes (they aren't, which is the primary reason 70% of all divorces are initiated by women; purely statistically they have less to lose).
Even if a woman just wants a guy to forgo the stuff he cares about for some time caring about her thing, this is as non-trivial for them as for guys.
Re:Women can land any man they want (Score:5, Insightful)
There are downsides to both gender roles.
One workshop that tried to help genders understand each other better did these exercises:
- First, they got all the men in the room to line up and had the women rate them on their appearance, to teach guys that women feel constantly judged by how they look no matter what the context and give them a chance to see what that feels like.
- Second, they got the women in the room to go up to a stranger and ask them out, to get a feeling for what men go through every time they initiate a relationship.
What's particularly sad is the number of women who've been taught by their moms or Cosmopolitan and the like that when they like a man they shouldn't ask him out, but should somehow signal to him that they want him to ask her out. This leaves the women frustrated because the men didn't pick up their signals, and leaves the men frustrated because they can't figure out when a woman wants to make something happen.
People who believe in dating strategies (Score:4, Insightful)
wind up with people who believe in dating strategies: shallow reptilian posers who look at other people like predators do.
But people who act like themselves, meet people who are actually interested in them. When you act like yourself, and follow no strategy at all, you form genuine lasting bonds based on your actual real personality and character.
Strategy, when it comes to meeting someone of the opposite sex you are interested in forming a lasting meaningful bond with, is failure. Because strategy is about conquest when relationships are about humanity. So the best strategy when it comes to forming a human bond with other human beings is absence of strategy. The less you try, the better you do, because without the sword and armor people see you for what you really are. Not everyone will like the real you, but its better to lead without the sword and armor, because if you build a relationship based on the sword and armor, you eventually have to take those things off, they cost too much to maintain, and the person you wooed with the sword and armor won't like what they see, and feel betrayed, since they were sold on the sword and armor.
Unless you are just looking to get laid. In which case, you should be concerned with nothing more than tactical warfare.
Re:She tries too hard (Score:5, Insightful)
having to learn how to parrot stupid lines about x86 vs. ARM
Seriously. I'd be very weirded out if a girl used a line like that during a conversation, only to later find out that she had no clue what she was talking about. If she needs to resort to being fake to make people think she's interesting, well, I'll take my chances elsewhere.
Re:She tries too hard (Score:5, Insightful)
Star Wars quotes?
I think a simple:
"Hi!" *genuine smile*
Would land most any geek... Star Wars quotes would be a bonus.
Re:Why women "in tech" don't trust each other... (Score:3, Insightful)
I for one am wary of any coworker, regardless of gender, who has not demonstrated an ability to do their job. Male or female or something else doesn't matter: that person's failings can and will screw up my life by either forcing me to take up the slack or pinning the blame on me for their problems. And as a male geek, pandering to me doesn't get you off the hook.
And you're right that a fair number of companies are fine with people who are incompetent at their jobs. Read The Peter Principle, which has a lot on the subject of why they tolerate stupidity and failure.
Disagree (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure my wife could name any of the programming languages that I have used in my career. And that doesn't bother me.
I don't need my partner to be interested in the specifics of my work. When I am upset or frustrated about work, or want to talk about what I did that day, generalities are fine, because honestly, unless you were on the same project I was on, it wouldn't make much sense no matter what level of vocabulary you had.
I've had the experience of dating a girl very seriously who was beautiful, highly intelligent, and an excellent system administrator. And our shared language and work/hobby interests did nothing to smooth over the rocky spots in our relationship, and while initially it made me much more attracted to her, in retrospect it was perhaps novelty more than anything else. IOW, her qualities as a person were considerably more important than her "job" as a sysadmin or her interests as "a geek", and our ideology and personality clashes eventually overshadowed our mutual geekyness.
_My_ advice to women who are interested in geeky guys is
1) be accessible. Women _baffle_ men, and geeks are used to being able to come up with valid mental models to predict the behavior of complex things. But this is regularly less successful than we would like when applied to girls. (See xkcd: http://xkcd.com/55/ [xkcd.com])
This means, when we work up the nerve to ask questions or chat, use accomodating body language. Listen, and ask clarifying questions to help draw us out more. Don't act like we have the plague -- we probably don't.
2) Expect to be challenged. Challenge back. Most geeks will want to have an authentic relationship. We will, like all asshole men, project our values, expectations, and ideas about women on to you, but we're better off if you challenge us when we do that. Not like "STFU you patriarch bastard", but actually engage us in a discussion about why we are wrong. You don't have to care about what we do, but you do need to demonstrate critical thinking skills. We, by and large, do not have serious relationships with people who are very beautiful but very dim and self centered. They are eye and arm candy, but not for serious relationships.
3) We are usually not eye and arm candy.
(To be fair, we're not asking you to be either -- very often :))
If we need to shave more or dress better or whatever to meet your expectations regarding house-broken mammals, we will probably not understand, and we will probably resist any attempts by you to guilt us or shame us into complying. Explain why it is important to you _personally_, and work things from that angle. There will be some amount of ideological opposition, but usually you'll luck out by appealing to the pragmatist within us.
4) Don't be ashamed of who you are or what your interests are. The AMD lady's advice is pretty bad I think -- if you're not interested in CPU types, don't pretend to be. Some of us love explaining that stuff to anyone who will listen, and others would rather not tell you if you cannot be bothered to find out for yourself. But don't patronize us and imply that you are interested when you really aren't.
5) Many of the same problems between men and women apply to geek men and women. We have pride, we desperately want your respect, it is important (to varying degrees) to us to be approved of by you. Often, we are better at expressing our anger and frustration in words, but not always. Some of us are alcoholics, quick to anger, and some of us will hurt you, because after all, we're still men, even when we're not tan and not rippling with muscle mass.
(PS: many of us are still confused about how we fit into a world that has a traditional yet evolving idea of what a "man" is. Yes, our grandpas fought wars, our dads worked in factories and enjoyed a stiff drink. Yet some of us don't like going outside. Somewhere inside all of us is the need to be a bit macho at times, but we're not always sure how.
Re:Women can land any man they want (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:use is appropriate (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You guys just don't get it. (Score:1, Insightful)
The "pants" is just one example of geeks vs. non-geeks.
I do wear khakis occasionally for business casual, but I wear pants for work most of the time. Grooming was another part. And I also stopped wearing those free computer shirts and started wearing button down shirts.
But I'd like to believe I'm just a step below a full-blown "suit." I'll save those for the winter.
My changes could also be because of my job. But my gf def. helped me polish my wardrobe, and I do notice a difference on how my superiors see me. More importantly, I don't scare off women, which is the point of this article.
Generally speaking, girls like a guy who's polished. Geeks tend to think that's a waste of time - that the content is what matters. I have female co-workers who find her post cute and funny. Slashdot users (who are mostly male and geek) don't, which is fine to disagree, but the comments here are beyond defensive with snarky comments towards the author.
Anyways, I don't want to show up to work looking like I just graduated from college when I'm 40.
Re:Women can land any man they want (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a difference between "finding someone that they desire" and "having someone that they desire".
Women often end up frustrated and disappointed just like men do.
Re:Would the real Leslie Sobon please stand up (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a photo of Leslie Sobon [amd.com] Alright, that's pretty good, but then these are also photos of Leslie: one [digitalhollywood.com] two [youtube.com] three [gstatic.com] four [mycom.co.jp] That's quite a range there, never know what you're going to get.
Are you new to dealing with human beings (I was going to say "women" but then realized even that was too narrow)?
Every single one of those pix looks like the same attractive woman. But people look a bit different from time to time, like when they are working vs when they are posing for an "image" shot. It is exactly the same with guys as with gals, except that you don't have the same "appearance police" mentality scrutinizing the guys for imperfections like you do with gals.
This reminds me of the candid paparazzi snaps of, say, Jennifer Aniston picking up some hygiene products on a midnight run to 7-11 at midnight in her sweats. Someone who is possibly the world's most beautiful woman (sorry Ashwariya) looks kind of dowdy under those conditions but she is still the same person and could look absolutely dazzling later in the morning. If she doesn't pass your "always must look beautiful test", its your problem not hers.
Guys who expect woman to be glamorous 24/7/365 are either very rich or idiots. Both sets are jerks.
No, most men are just really pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't actually directed toward commodore64. I don't know the first thing about his love life. For all I know, he has a harem of eager sex slaves who worship the ground he walks on. It's really directed toward anyone who read his post and thought "Yeah! He's dead right!"
You have it backwards. It's much easier for an unattractive man to make himself attractive than an unattractive woman. That's because most women are attracted by the way we make them feel, not just how we look (looks don't hurt, but you might be surprised by how many "pretty boys" can get enough women with just their looks that that they never bother to develop a personality...which is much, much more important). How often have you seen a drop-dead gorgeous woman with some pathetic loser and you wondered why, knowing you'd be so much better for her? How often do you see a drop-dead gorgeous man with a hideous woman?
We're the lucky ones. Many women will tell you that men get more attractive with age. Not all, of course. But a surprisingly high percentage.
We do have to work at it. But talking to women is actually a lot more fun than it is work. If you're getting an instant "no" as soon as you walk up, or simple derisive laughter when you try to step things up a notch, you're doing something terribly, terribly wrong. Women are much more sensitive to social nuances than men, and they're much more polite and concerned about hurting other people's feelings. Sure, you'll run into the occasional bitch, but they're really few and far between.
If what you're doing isn't working, change what you're doing.
I can't believe I'm getting ready to post this on /.
No kidding (Score:4, Insightful)
If I were to give advice to women interested in a geek it would be this:
Most geeks are shy, and at least a bit socially awkward. You can't count on them to pick up subtle cues and you really can't count on them to make the first move. If you want to get to know them, go up to them, smile, and start up a conversation. They'll almost certainly chat with you.
Yes, it does mean that you have to risk rejection. Really, you can deal with it, guys deal with it all the time :D.
That is really all there is. If the relationship will work or all that other jazz, well you find that out as things progress, as with any relationship. The only real difference is that due to the generally shy, introverted nature of most geeks, you'll need to make the first move.
I suppose the other thing would be to understand that geeks do like computers and do want to chatter about them. That's fine, much as you might have an interest your boyfriend does not, it can be the same the other way around. You can still chatter about it. Just be prepared that he may want to talk technical. You can politely remind him that you don't understand it all, or simply ask, many geeks are happy to explain their hobbies in great detail if you wish.
You don't have to be fake, you don't have to pretend like you are a geek. You just have to be friendly and receptive.
Be nice and make the first move, I'd say you have a better than average chance of having a relationship if you want one.
Re:Women can land any man they want (Score:1, Insightful)
Or as my gf likes to say 'I have had jerk after jerk until you why are you so different?!'
It is simple the very things that makes a man a 'bad boy' can be seriously irritating long term. Or as I tell her 'you were being direct with the ones you found exciting and ignoring those who could help you out'.
Being in trouble can be exciting. However, it is easy to do. Being stable now thats hard...
what do you do.. (Score:1, Insightful)
to pick up girls then? Or do you wait for them to ask you out?
I ask this sincerely. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or funny.
Re:It's funny - laugh (Score:4, Insightful)
Did you realize you were being hit upon?
One thing I have to add is that one should never ask a question you don't understand. We know when you're bullshitting and we hate it. Geeks like explaining things. Being genuinely interested but ignorant makes for much better conversation than trying to fake it.
Here's another tip. Out geek the geek. If you're in the printing department, for instance, you may know all sorts of technical details about various processes that an IT geek wouldn't know. We eat that shit up.
Re:Women can land any man they want (Score:3, Insightful)
They don't *have* to work at it, they *choose* to work at it.
Re:Women can land any man they want (Score:3, Insightful)
Women end up frustrated and disappointed because they choose to. When women are frustrated and disappointed, it's because they can't get a specific man. There are lots of other men, they are just being too picky. Generally men only end up frustrated and disappointed when they can't get any woman at all.
Re:Hm (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems like there's a definite difference between geeks and normies.
A real deal geek seems to be someone incapable of "normal" social functioning who seeks escape just like many others. Some people go with alcohol. Geeks go with technology.
Re:geeks don't wear pants, they wear jeans and sho (Score:4, Insightful)
Being able to dress like a successful adult male doesn't make you a douche. There is more to dressing than jeans, cargo shorts, and ironic t-shirts, and if you don't want to be one of the average-looking Old-Navy-wearing clones at the bar, maybe you should try varying your wardrobe a little. Sometimes jeans and a t-shirt are appropriate... sometimes it's fun (and productive, in terms of attracting women) to wear something a little nicer.
And, anecdotally, you'll attract more attention if you dress up a little - speaking as an average-looking guy who's 20-35 pounds overweight (depending on the day, and depending on what I ate...), sloppy untucked t-shirts & shorts just tend to look bad. Dress up, tuck your shirt in, and spend 5 minutes throwing some polish on your shoes, and suddenly you'll find that girls think you're a lot better looking.
Re:Women can land any man they want (Score:3, Insightful)
I very much agree. I think it's extremely common for women to be into 'bad boys'. Guys who seem confident because they don't seem to care very much about things. These same guys will end up irritating because when you're in a relationship with them, they'll treat you with the same level of caring they give to everything else: not much. I think another sad thing is that the guys who meet the 'bad boy' stereotype can be domineering and controlling. I suppose it makes alot of women tingle to see a man who seems to control the people who surround him (so powerful!), but do they really want that guy to try to control them too?
When I hear a woman say that "all men are the same, they're all jerks", it makes me sad. Quite possibly, all the men you dated were jerks, but then, you wouldn't have that problem if you stopped only picking jerks. If you gave a chance to one of the many many decent, honest, respectful men out there (and they exist), you might be pleasantly surprised.
Perhaps it's in part because the guys who simply don't care are the ones who ask girls out the most and we nerds don't do it nearly as much... But, in the end, it's the women who pick the people they're dating. They're the ones who say yes or no. If you're a girl and you want a decent man for a relationship, my advice would be to be more selective in the ways that matter. Men who aren't respectful and trustworthy will quickly show their true colors, if you observe carefully enough.
Re:It's funny - laugh (Score:4, Insightful)
Some girls are into geek guys, even if they aren't into the business themselves.
I once had this customer, an absolute babe, bring her virused out Dell into my shop. The decision was for a plain re-install (she had all her stuff backed up, smart girl). Installing XP is not a hard task, but to someone who's never done it, it's like going down the rabbit hole. She was fascinated by the process. Simple little things like blowing the dust out of the machine, changing the boot order, partitioning the drive, she was totally into it. She wanted me to explain everything, and I did, if for no other reason than to appreciate her beauty a little longer (my bad). Maybe she'd missed her calling in life.
As the install got underway, I told her the usual thing I do on a Saturday when a machine is doing an automated install and I have no other work: go to the pub down the street and have a couple of pints, watch the football, come back, queue up the updates and then go home. She suggested that she could come along to the pub, too.
Okay. I'm living every geek's dream here, for real. A hot, young babe is impressed by my skillz and wants to go on a date.
I blurted out that I wasn't sure what my wife might think of that. She was embarrassed. I felt like a jerk. :( She never knew because I wear my ring on a chain around my neck so it doesn't get scuffed up.
As funny as the article is, geeks face the same lessons in love as everyone else.
Re:Women can land any man they want (Score:3, Insightful)
You're doomed until you learn how to be at least a little bit of a jerk. The rules don't make sense, but they are the rules. Why are geeks willing to put up with all kinds of esoteric rule systems but then complain when they have to deal with this one? Its a predictable set of responses based on an expected stimulus. If you want a certain output, you need to provide the correct input. You can be a jerk to get your foot in the door, then let Mr. Nice Guy take over. They'll be even happier you did. Manipulative, sure, but if you think that everyone isn't constantly manipulating everyone else you're wrong.
Re:Women can land any man they want (Score:3, Insightful)
Women end up frustrated and disappointed because they choose to. When women are frustrated and disappointed, it's because they can't get a specific man. There are lots of other men, they are just being too picky.
Sure. Whereas lots of men, on the other hand, set their standards too low and end up married to "that bitch", then the usual child support, etc.
Women and men really aren't all that different - there's a fair proportion of both who are 1) looking for a quick lay 2) looking for some media-promulgated version of "Mr(s) Right" 3) Don't know what the hell they are looking for, or in rare and wonderful cases, 4) Are comfortable with their own lives enough that they don't worry about it all that much, and just date when someone they really like comes along.
At one point or another in my life I have fallen into all of the first three categories. For some years now I've been living in the fourth one - and it's the happiest one. My advice to both sexes is - Take it slow, lay off the damned intensity already. It can be a real turnoff to someone decent, who has their own life, who you really want to get to know.
I'm not writing any love advice columns soon, few listen to practical advice ;-D
SB
Re:Disagree (Score:3, Insightful)
That is very well said!
One point about the generalities - I'm a computer tech who owns his own business, and when I have time I also do remodeling/carpentry/maintenance. The woman I live with is one of my best friends - almost twenty years now, living together when life brings us to the same place - and she works in professional handicap care - and neither of us are capable, nor have the time to, understand completely what the other does for a living. Yet our best times together, when we can make our schedules coincide (too rarely) are when we can sit and talk about what each of us does - and I've found that despite not having near the educational level I do, she is completely capable of understanding what I do - and despite me not having *her* educational level, I can understand and am fascinated by much of what she does.
As to 5) - She points out that there are lots of ways to hurt someone else, and they aren't always physical. We hurt each other on a semi-regular basis - but always make up. It helps a lot that neither of us rely completely on the other for emotional, intellectual, nor sexual support - we don't have an "agreement" about seeing other people, we just don't get crazy about it. Jealousy, whether it's the emotional, intellectual or physical kind, kills more good relationships than just about any other factor.
Great points, the rest... thanks. Life is hard enough without the angst that comes with demanding one's partner or close friends be "perfect".
I'll point out that among the women who are my closest friends, we have discussed pretty much all of the points you raise. The men I count as friends... not so much, there seems to be an ingrained knee-jerk reaction against doing so with many of them - not all , but many, I do know some men who would agree with what you said. As one of my male friends said recently, "It's not "macho", just being a human being. "
Oh, 3) Eye/Arm/Social candy is, in *our* view (people who enjoy that sort of thing, male or female, are not the sort of people I consider friends, so I'm biased), just grandstanding, "look what I have!" and therefore not worth engaging in, in any form...
SB