North Korea Threatens South Korea Over Christmas Lights 441
K7DAN writes "North Korea warned South Korea on Sunday of 'unexpected consequences' if Seoul displays Christmas lights near the tense border, and vowed to retaliate for what it called 'psychological warfare.' From the article: 'The tree-shaped, 30 metre-high steel structure on Aegibong hill - some 3km (2 miles) from the border - was illuminated by thousands of small light bulbs last year. It could be seen from the North's major city of Kaesong across the border, according to media reports. Pyongyang has previously accused Seoul of using the tree to spread the Christian message to people inside the secular state.'"
Pot, kettle, black (Score:5, Informative)
what it called 'psychological warfare.'
Big words for a country that built an entire town [wikipedia.org] on their side of the border, just for propaganda.
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:5, Funny)
what it called 'psychological warfare.'
Big words for a country that built an entire town [wikipedia.org] on their side of the border, just for propaganda.
Yeah, well think about it. The government of North Korea is such an evil bunch of feckwits they can't even get coal for Christmas.
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:5, Funny)
Seoul-less heathens, the lot of them!
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:5, Interesting)
There's a National Geographic documentary you can watch free on Netflix (the Lisa Ling) one that gives a glimpse. Brainwashed citizens, traffic cops directing no traffic, empty roads... etc
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a National Geographic documentary you can watch free on Netflix (the Lisa Ling) one that gives a glimpse. Brainwashed citizens, traffic cops directing no traffic, empty roads... etc
People in DPRK live to serve the government. They are effectively peasants and serfs, party members are vassals and the top generals are royalty, with the Kim Jong-il clan as the heriditary monarchy. This state is not communist, it's a throwback to the middle ages, when the King owned all the lands. Other than a little bit of planned economy, it's nothing like communism - because communisn is something people would strive for, not have forced upon them at barrel of gun or threat of dying in one dear monster's labor/re-education camps.
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:4, Interesting)
People in DPRK live to serve the government. They are effectively peasants and serfs, party members are vassals and the top generals are royalty, with the Kim Jong-il clan as the heriditary monarchy. This state is not communist, it's a throwback to the middle ages, when the King owned all the lands. Other than a little bit of planned economy, it's nothing like communism - because communisn is something people would strive for, not have forced upon them at barrel of gun or threat of dying in one dear monster's labor/re-education camps.
Some are born communist, some achieve communism, and some have communism thrust upon them.
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....communism is something people would strive for, not have forced upon them at barrel of gun or threat of dying in one dear monster's labor/re-education camps.
Yes, true communism is always something "on the horizon." But the march towards the horizon never reaches its destination. Sorry, but the best argument against communism is communism.
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People in DPRK live to serve the government. They are effectively peasants and serfs, party members are vassals and the top generals are royalty, with the Kim Jong-il clan as the heriditary monarchy. This state is not communist, it's a throwback to the middle ages, when the King owned all the lands. Other than a little bit of planned economy, it's nothing like communism - because communisn is something people would strive for, not have forced upon them at barrel of gun or threat of dying in one dear monster's labor/re-education camps.
North Korea is implementing Communism on at least 2 counts:
1) In Communism, the individual lives to serve the state. Communism is one form of Collectivism, and all forms of Collectivism consider the greatest good to be the benefit of the state, not the individual.
2) Leninism, a form of Communism, states that bloody revolution is essential to converting society to Communism. Leninism advocates violent revolution as much as possible, to spread Communism.
As for the ruling class of North Korea living better tha
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North Korea continues to exist because we keep giving it money, food and supplies. At least at importantly, China keeps North Korea alive, if only to keep North Koreans out of China. North Korea is China's ghetto. Kim Jong-il is the slumlord. Whenever the slumlord wants more money, food or supplies, he rattles his cage and makes faces and threatening noises, and the rest of the world tosses him a pacifier to quiet him.
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, well think about it. The government of North Korea is such an evil bunch of feckwits they can't even get coal for Christmas.
Coal is expensive, bub. In Europe, really naughty kids are getting Euro's in their stockings instead.
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:5, Funny)
Don't knock the Euro. It won't be long before those bills will be rare and valuable collector's items.
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Don't knock the Euro. It won't be long before those bills will be rare and valuable collector's items.
Whoa! Guess I should take them off the toilet roll.
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Hopefully the euro won't disappear any time soon, but if it does, I imagine most of the notes would be far too common to ever exceed their former face value. BTW, assuming you're from the USA, I wouldn't be bragging about the dollar either. You could argue that we're merely trying to catch up to the dollar...in a race to the bottom.
(hit the [yahoo.com]
More detail (Score:5, Informative)
It is not Seoul or the South Korean government that display those Christmas trees.
They're 45% without religion and 23% Buddhist.
Those Christmas trees belong to Roman Catholics (~10%), who are allowed to have them - by the government.
I wish people would also distinguish more between a) Country, b) Population, c) Government (even though some still believe b) is responsible for c)
Re:More detail (Score:5, Insightful)
I wish more people could distinguish more between christmas and christianity ;)
Re:More detail (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure Christmas was a Christian holiday before it became the Hallmark holiday it is known as today. Although a good number of Christians do still celebrate the original in it's original intention.
...and I"m pretty sure it was a Pagan holiday prior to that.
Re:More detail (Score:5, Informative)
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A quick Wikipedia check says you're wrong. Christmas trees are a German/Latvian Christian tradition which started in the 15th or 16th Century.
The article on Saturnalia doesn't even contain the word tree. Mithras doesn't have anything about decorating trees in the story.
About the only thing that seems to be factual is December 25 being used for Christmas because people were celebrating then anyway.
Re:More detail (Score:5, Interesting)
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Being Norwegian i am tempted to think of it as a partial recapture, as we still call it jul.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule [wikipedia.org]
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That sounds suspicious to me, given that the Russian word for Christmas quite literally describes what the holiday is about. Even less believable for Easter, because the traditional Orthodox greeting on the day to any person you meet is "Christ has risen", with the customary response "Truly he has risen" - and this is practiced by vast majority of Russians, even secular ones.
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It's about light. Look at the North Korean night sky [cnet.com]. The North Koreans don't have much light at night, so that Christmas tree just became the brightest object around, even if you're standing in the middle of a North Korean city.
Re:More detail (Score:4, Insightful)
So basically NK is worried that their people might see "hey, they got electricity on the other side of the border!"
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So basically NK is worried that their people might see "hey, they got electricity on the other side of the border!"
When you're telling your starving citizens that they've got it much better than the rest of the world - yeah, I can see why a brightly lit tree, whose only purpose is for decoration, would upset them.
Re:More detail (Score:5, Insightful)
OMG (Score:5, Funny)
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He's so ronrey.
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Re:OMG (Score:5, Funny)
Re:OMG (Score:5, Funny)
Re:OMG (Score:4, Informative)
You must be joking, right?
As recently as 1990-1994 American Indians have had to fight for their ability to consume their religious sacrament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_Church#Federal_law [wikipedia.org]
Prior to 1930 the US had a policy to systematically destroy Native American religions and culture, and you're complaining about the Federal Government asking that ALL religious effigies be moved to private land?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americanization_(of_Native_Americans)#Suppression_of_Religion [wikipedia.org]
Get over yourself! I bet you also believe there's a war on Christmas!
Someone call Bill O'Reilly (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Someone call Bill O'Reilly (Score:5, Informative)
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We tend to pay too much heed to the number of people killed, and too little to decreasing the quality of life, when doing charts of "who was the evilest". If you add up the joy of life destroyed by Christianity, it doesn't take a big weighting to put Stalin, Hitler and Mao together to shame. And Islam is a close runner-up.
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I'm not defending the religious zealots of christianity by any stretch, but islam, overall, is actually worse. We just don't hear that much about it's history and oppressions here in the west. And xtianity worse than Hitler, Mao, and Stalin put together? lol. I think hundred
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You mean, the organization that did the most book burning in history should be absolved because a few of its adherents dared to preserve heretical writings?
Re:Someone call Bill O'Reilly (Score:5, Insightful)
Given how much I've failed to love God with all my being, or to love my neighbor as myself, I expect to burn.
Salvation is not based on how much you love God or your neighbor. It's given based on the realization that you *can't* love God and your neighbor perfectly and that you *do* need something else to afford salvation. That is why trusting that Christ has the power to, and will, save you is important ... and furthermore, that He will not only forgive but also give you a "new birth" - or, as Paul puts it, transform your mind, make you a new creation, etc. "Take out this heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh" idea.
I reiterate. Being saved by God is not based on how much you can do, or no one would be saved. It's based on how much Christ has already done and the willingness of one to realize that what Christ has done is entirely sufficient and to trust in that alone for salvation... and to furthermore, continue to pursue after God, truth, and righteousness. (see the book of James, where he discusses the deadness of a faith that has no works to show that it is a real faith).
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Though I respect what Reformed churches have accomplished, I think Calvinism has resulted in a very distorted picture of God. A God who arbitrarily chooses to save some and to damn others can hardly be called just or loving.
Instead, God's will is to "have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)
While it certainly is true that no one could be saved by their own merits and all are reliant on Christ, if it were only up to God's election, he'd save everyone. But instead
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"Without my admittedly superficial and limited knowledge of Christ and of Christianity, I would still have morals, but no power to live up to them"
This is one of the things that's scary about religious people. Apparently acting morally because it's the right thing to do, or out of respect for other people isn't enough. They need an omnipotent being to tell them to do it. Quite a few seem to need the threat of eternal torture. And for many (most?) even that doesn't work. And of course, if you can be con
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Real crazies are mostly harmless because they're either so nuts that they can't actually act on any desire to harm people or they still have a functioning moral compass (or in many cases they become completely oblivious to the outside world). The really dangerous people are sane but fanatic. Insanity is a term that has been misused to describe assholes but all that misuse does is ostracize the insane who are treated as dangerous killers instead of the helpless sick people that they are. To be dangerous a pe
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Someone doesnt remember Santa's 1972 armed invasion of Greenland and the resulting worldwide backlash.
odd all around (Score:5, Insightful)
While the North's reaction sounds predictably paranoid, the article seems to hint that some sort of propaganda is the purpose of the tree, as evidenced by whether it's lit or not being correlated with thawing versus tension of relations. I'm not sure how effective it'd be at spreading a Christian message specifically, but maybe it's intended to spread a sort of generic, "look how awesome it is just across the border" message?
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Re:odd all around (Score:5, Informative)
it absolutely is, and it's ridiculous for people to think otherwise or argue about, or that it's somehow not government sanctioned. Same goes for the gigantic flags that are on display on either side of the border. The North Koreans are obsessive about not being shown up by the "imperialists", and have even showfully walked out of meetings in the DMZ because there was a disparity in the size of flags, or their soldiers were not tall enough, or there was some other very arbitrary breach of protocol. Only to come back with taller soldiers, bigger flags, and more attitude.
Of course, it takes two to tango, and the Americans and ROK Koreans are more than happy to play the game of flag waving, most notably in what ended up as Operation Paul Bunyan, when the simple desire to clear some trees from blocking a Southern outpost ended up with a group of North Koreans starting an axe-fight in the DMZ and killing an American. None of the Americans or ROK wanted to go to war over the death of one soldier, but goddamn were they were going to finish cutting down that goddamn tree, so the natural response was to launch what was at the time the largest military operation since D-Day. Aircraft carrier groups were brought in range and on standby, B-52s were in the air, helicopters were waiting in the air just beyond the hills all in support of a couple of trucks of Koreans and Americans and their chainsaw. There's a first-hand report linked to in the references section on wikipedia from this describing how weapons were smuggled in the back of the trucks and, in an attempt to provide cover while minimizing the potential for gunfire, some of the Koreans had strapped claymore land mines to their chests and stood on the bridge taunting and screaming like lunatics while the whole tree, and not just the offending branches, was cut down. All this for a damn tree branch!
The trees in this article, while much less dramatic, are no different. It even says as much and doesn't just hint at it -- they are not actually trees but 30 meters-tall metal structures in the general conical shape of a tree, built on top of a hill just 3 km from the DMZ. It's tall enough, on top of a hill enough, and bright enough to be visible across the border from a city which cannot be supplied with electricity all the time, and in a lull of the posturing about a decade ago, it was barred from being lit. How could that be anything but psychological warfare or propaganda?
That doesn't make it bad, either. It's part of a propaganda war which is continually exacerbated by the North. They don't have much to bring to the negotiating table, so they create it with these kinds of complaints, which are numerous and ridiculous, hoping to bargain it away for the crops they've stolen from their people and destroyed through terrible central management. Sometimes it's pretty meaningless, sometimes it involves the sinking of a ROK ship or shelling of a Southern island. Sometimes they have to complain about nothing just so that they don't lose face and look like they are too scared to complain. Often enough they can't even accept a good deal because they've painted themselves into a corner and always need to demand more or need to appear to be stronger or in better shape than they already appear.
Re:odd all around (Score:5, Informative)
Wikipedia [wikipedia.org], as well as a recent talk on this that I heard, disagree with the Linus's origin of the trees. The christmas tree apparently originated in Germany (or perhaps eastern Europe), and has either unknown or distinctly christian meaning-- for the Germans, it was apparently related to the story of Adam and Eve (paradise tree).
Apparently, the Germans brought it over to the US in the latter half of the 19th century, where it took root (haha) and became an "american tradition".
I assume what you are referring to would be "sacred oaks" or "asherah poles", which almost certainly would NOT have been fir, and I highly doubt that christians would have embraced THOSE for christmas given the clear biblical attacks on such concepts. It IS true, however, that Christmas was not really celebrated until the 4th century, and is more a Catholic tradition than it is a Biblical event: Christ's day of birth is neither recorded nor celebrated until then, and thus noone really knows what his day of birth was (Ive heard "probably mid-september").
Mostly agree with Linus however, that the meaning of Christmas is already heavily obscured, and has for the most part become either a celebration of togetherness or of consumerism, depending the family. For many Christians, the 'original' meaning (to celebrate Christ's birth) is still celebrated in various ways-- hence Christmas services, carols, and other religious activities.
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I assume what you are referring to would be "sacred oaks" or "asherah poles", which almost certainly would NOT have been fir, and I highly doubt that christians would have embraced THOSE for christmas given the clear biblical attacks on such concepts.
Are you really making a distinction between the type of tree? Wherever the idea of a Christmas tree happened to come from, it idea still reeks of paganism, and the reference to Jeremiah 10:1-5 seems spot on.
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If everyone else is doing it, it must be okay! Clearly most people didn't learn anything from Noah's ark. 95% of my family is Christian (I used to be, but am no longer) - I'm wondering about showing them this cartoon and seeing how they squirm their minds around it just so that they can keep their shiny tree..
Go christmas lights (Score:2)
I don't think I've ever seen such an uplifting tale about christmas lights before. From tacky to beautiful, whoever thought ruffling North Korea was in the cards?
Get with the times, man... (Score:5, Insightful)
The idea that Christmas trees are a symbol of Christianity, rather than some freaky pagan stuff, stolen for a while by Christians, and now firmly entrenched as a coniferous altar of Mammon for youth of all ages and faiths, is patently absurd.
Now, it is unlikely that pro-consumerist psychological warfare will be any more popular with our fabulously haired friend; but he needn't worry about the spread of any but the worldliest of indulgences...
Re:Get with the times, man... (Score:5, Insightful)
freaky pagan stuff, stolen for a while by Christians, and now firmly entrenched as a coniferous altar of Mammon for youth of all ages and faiths
I think you hit the nail square on the head. Being a communist county, the mammon-worship is probably what they're most upset about, far more than the Christianity when they're athiests. Why should an athiest fear a god? It makes no sense. It does make sense that a communist country would fear commerce.
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Re:Get with the times, man... (Score:4, Insightful)
As a Christian, I have to agree with the athiests there. There should be no such thing as forced prayer or a forced pledge. Forcing people to recite the Lord's Prayer or the Pledge of Aleigance is just plain wrong; this is the sort of thing you have in dictatorships. Don't bash Christians, bash idiots who want everyone to think and act like them. This includes all religions and all non-religions.
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and now firmly entrenched as a coniferous altar of Mammon for youth of all ages and faiths, is patently absurd.
Not everyone celebrates it the same way, but thats not really the point. The tree itself IS a christian symbol [wikipedia.org], and regardless of whether you agree with THAT historical data it represents a custom in christian societies. North Korea wants nothing to do with foreign religions, cultures, or traditions, which is why they are reacting like this.
They're just jealous (Score:5, Insightful)
'Cause they don't HAVE any light when the sun's not shining.
N Korea at night:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/dprk-dark.htm [globalsecurity.org]
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'Cause they don't HAVE any light when the sun's not shining.
... but some people sure tried [well.com]...
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Wimpy (Score:5, Interesting)
Thats pretty wimpy psychological warfare, as decorating pine trees in the living room and shopping and fighting people on black friday and singing about red nosed reindeer is hard core capitalist worship, its not christian at all. I don't even know how you visually "do" christian christmas worship other than something like a 200 foot tall "nativity scene" which unfortunately makes no sense to someone not already versed in christian theology (my son, when he was very little, called it "the farmers", too little to know any better, yet +1 insightful as it was, after all, in a barn scene...)
Now real christian psychological warfare would be a larger than life Easter scene of the last supper with the table unbiblically piled with tons and tons of yummy food... most of the NK either are currently starving or recently were starving so a big food display is going to rile them all up to no end. Maybe they do that? Waving a bunch of food in front of a starving man with a gun is probably unwise, maybe its going too far?
Since when was Christmas a religious holiday? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Since when was Christmas a religious holiday? (Score:4, Insightful)
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and its celebration as a religious festival far predates any of what you've described above.
No, as you stated, Christians assigned their birthday celebration near the solstice so they could co-opt the Roman Saturnalia festivities, which already involved booze, parties, presents and shopping.
The Christian's strategy was generally successful, but they certainly shouldn't be surprised when it backfires because people continue their partying around the solstice for the same reasons they always have. If Christians really don't like it, they should move the birthday again to a more somber date.
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That the date was chosen independently of anything associated with the event that it celebrates does not diminish that the celebration itself has plenty to do with religion, even if the exact day of the year does not.
Not a good place to be (Score:3, Interesting)
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I suggest you reread the original post.
Re:Not a good place to be (Score:5, Informative)
The Korean war was certainly on a smaller scale than WW2, but it wasn't just a drop in the bucket. The North and its supplemental Chinese used all kinds of human wave tactics, literally just marching people off to their death and hoping that it would eventually overcome the other side. The UN and US forces were still in the WW2 era of technology -- there were almost 40,000 US deaths, compared to the almost 60,000 US deaths in Vietnam despite lasting for only three years. As an ideological, civil war, there were mass slaughters of the native Korean soldiers and civilians on both sides, with thousands being killed at a time. The bare minimum for civilian deaths is something like 2 million, and upwards of 3 million.
This doesn't include the aftermath, when the country was severed in two and completely impoverished on both sides. South Korea has some glitz and glamour today, but it centers in a few cities, and there are still millions of people living in complete poverty. North Korea is like the post-Roman Dark Ages, except for the complete dictatorship that rules over the population armed with modern weapons. Today the population is much higher than in the 1950s, with one-third or one-fourth of the population of the USA living on a peninsula that's about half the size of California. Almost 1/3 the population of the South, about 20 million people, lives in the greater Seoul area, which is basically inside artillery range which could level huge sections of the city, and the people living there, in a very short amount of time.
Nobody really knows what the North Koreans would do in a war, either. Many of them could fight to the bitter end regardless of what was actually going on. Some of them might believe the propaganda about the South and US being ruthless killers ready to slaughter them all and commit suicide like Japanese civilians and soldiers did even in the waning days of war in the Pacific in WW2. They might try to take as many people with them into death. Even in a quick war where the majority of North Korean soldiers surrendered, the leadership probably would not and would find all of the hardliners they could willing to fight.
Even in the best case scenarios of a short, one-sided war, it would be a total bloodbath. North Koreans wishing to escape the fighting or just wishing to escape the area would pour over the borders both North and South, flooding into areas not able to support that many people so suddenly. There's even a potential of the Chinese invading along the north in order to capture territory, to prevent such a huge refugee crisis, and to guarantee the continued existence of a buffer zone not dominated by American interests so close to their territory. It would be an absolute humanitarian disaster no matter the outcome and would almost certainly be accompanied by millions of deaths even in the best-case scenarios.
When the North Korean People (Score:4, Funny)
Finally shrug off that horrible regime and look back at history, they're going to be ultra, mega pissed off.
Dear leaders, my arse.
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The only people with a (more or less) guaranteed meal a day are the military, and the ones in charge of that are the most well-off in that entire country in terms of necessities and power.
There will be no real change until all foreign countries stop giving them any form of aid, and they run out of food for their military and can't stretch it further with propaganda (i.e. troops start dying en mass from starvation).
Re:When the North Korean People (Score:5, Insightful)
With a highly unpredictable regime, I'm not sure "try to starve their army to death" is the right approach. Sad and selfish as it is to say, the North Korean people suffering may be the lesser of two evils in this circumstance.
Likewise, one thing that the North Korean regime has been exceptionally good at is deflecting blame. A wholly disconcerting number of the North Korean people really do believe that their suffering is because of the United States and a puppet South Korea. Furthering that suffering may well generate the anger you would be hoping to generate, but there is no guarantee that it is directed at the people it should be directed to.
Honestly, just waiting the North out is probably the best approach. I think Kim Jong-Il is regarded as pretty damn psychopathic, and I don't mean that short of its literal sense. There is simply no telling what he will do. He is also 70 years old. Short of him deciding to go out in a big bang, the amount of harm he can do, personally, is coming to a close. His children are western-educated. This is by no means a guarantee that they will be any better, but it is at least an indication that they understand the depth of the lie they are living in North Korea and has to offer at least some hope that, at bare minimum, they will be more reasonable people to deal with.
If not, once more about them and their ruling style and personalities are known, other measures can be considered. Until then, the status quo is good enough I'm afraid.
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I think the son in line for succession has been personally groomed and had his brainwashing ensured by Kim's regime.
If anything, he will try to define himself and his regime with some unspeakable act, which results in the deaths of dozens, if not hundreds, and then blame it all on the US and ROK.
Not just countries (Score:2)
NK has a lot of personal support from Japan, lots of people there admire the "self-reliance" of the NK doctrine and donate large sums of money to the regime.
Revolution needs a seed and that seed can be bred out of a population. See former USSR countries where people embrace the free market by patiently waiting for the state to sort it out. Nobody who has not been in a concentration camp or decades in prison can possible truly comprehend what it must be like in that hell hole. Even reports from East Germany
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I actually hope that North Korea is stupid enough to attempt an invasion of South Korea.
We can't really excuse going in there and "liberating" North Korea from what is one of the most oppressive dictatorships in the world. If they attack one of our major allies, however, they will get (at most) a couple of miles into South Korean territory before the US shows up and wrecks their shit. Then, of course, we'd go into the country and dismantle their entire military (one way or another). From there we'd probably
Re:When the North Korean People (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, God, no.
Yes, I want the North Korean government to get its well-deserved comeuppance as much as the next guy, but take a look at Seoul on Google Earth. Now drag northwards until you come to the North Korean border. Not very far, is it? Forget fancy missiles, it's within artillery range. It won't matter that they get "(at most) a couple of miles into South Korean territory." By the time they've done so, one of Asia's financial and industrial capitals will lie in ruins. The fact that the already mostly empty shell of Pyongyang will be razed to the ground shortly thereafter is cold comfort.
Finally some hope... (Score:2, Troll)
Well this is a first, we should mark it. This is the first glimmer of hope from that Regieme. The first time they have been worried about an enemy which really is insidious and they have every reason to keep out of their culture at all costs.... Christmas.
That ruiner of December, that event so horrible, that it can only be seen by the shear number of songs that are made to declare it the best time of the year. Summer needs no accolades. Nobody has to tell you "Isn't spring wonderful". A tradition which begi
Easy Solution (Score:5, Funny)
I have an easy solution. Just put up a giant menorah instead. Then you won't be spreading a Christian message.
Re: (Score:2)
Im fairly certain Kim Jong Il would oppose that just as adamantly.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:North Korea is not a "secular state". (Score:4, Insightful)
It's a country in the grip of a deified leader cult. They worship their tyrant and his father in a manner that would have made L. Ron Hubbard or Jim Jones jealous.
-jcr
Since I can't mod you up - This is why I take some offense at the term "secular state" in the summary. First, it's a very religious state where the deity happens to be the creepy "leader" of the country and his equally creepy father. Second, ignoring that reality for a minute and assuming "secular state" really means "doesn't officially acknowledge a creator", America is technically a "secular state". But in America, you can convert to the religion of your choice without worrying that you and your entire family will be thrown into a forced labor camp where you will die.
Light it up (Score:3)
Towns all over the US get the same complaint (Score:2)
Every year I read one or more stories about how some dumbwit in some town is offended by any and/or everything the town does at this time of year. Lights, decorations, a blowup Santa, Star Wars parade... someone gets offended. Though this year at least one town told the person to gently sod off.
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Wouldn't be the first time... (Score:2)
As someone else already pointed out, DMZ is an extremely volatile place. This is not the first time when a tree is a source of tension. See the "axe murder incident": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident [wikipedia.org]
Christian Message (Score:2)
This would be funnier if it weren't so sad (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm afraid that S. Korea (and the rest of the world) is between a rock and a hard place on how to del with this despot. I mean forget about the small chance of war between the Koreas; a conflict that while producing a very large number of civilian casualties would be over in a week or two with the modern S. Korea army aided by the U.S. quickly recovering from the initial bombardment and then demolishing the N. Korean army.
No I'm talking about the millions who for two generations have led short stunted lives due to starvation and extreme poverty. They have been deprived of any contact with the outside world and have been controlled to an extent that makes 1984 seem like a liberal's paradise. It's really chilling to watch a documentary such as the one made when western doctors went in to provide free critical surgeries to the populace only to see the ones who lives they've saved turn around and condemn their saviors.
One of the main reasons why I do not invest in China is because of their unbending support of N. Korea. Better (they think) to let millions of Koreans die than to let the Americans have an ally abutting them on their northern border. The other reasons include Tibet, Myanmar, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iran and basically all the non-democratic regimes in Africa who they prop up. I fully realize that the West is fully capable of rank hypocrisy but China doesn't even make a pretense of advancing the human condition.
I don't know what to do more than anyone else. Let this horrendous half-century holocaust continue or wage a war which would result on hundreds of thousands of casualties. I think the only way to decide on a firm course of action would be for S. Korea to have a national referendum as to whether or not to save the people who are literally their brothers. This makes planning surprise attack rather difficult though.
(Is "funnier" a legitimate word or not? I'm afraid I'm not a decider).
The power of the faith (Score:3, Insightful)
It's amazing how even the most oppressive dictator is afraid of a simple Christmas tree.
My neighbors (Score:5, Funny)
Good luck with that. (Score:3)
If it helps North Korea, I can point you to a store that has pretty good curtains!
Re:Why... (Score:5, Insightful)
Because of Afghanistan and other places we ignored having a tendency toward biting us in the ass from time to time.
I'm also pretty sure that Japan is quite interested in what North Korea does, given the proximity of the two countries and the cruise missiles that NK has developed...
Re:Why... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have modpoints, but I'm just at a loss to know what to call this. There is no 'bat-shit insane' mod response.
Re:Why... (Score:5, Insightful)
It would also make us universally-despised by just about everyone on Earth, and the moral equivalent of Genghis Khan. In case you've forgotten, we're supposed to be the good guys. We make occasional mistakes, and occasionally a psychopath slips through the chain of command, but for the most part, we do try to be a force for good. It might be mostly out of enlightened self-interest rather than genuine altruism, but at the end of the day, most of us can go to sleep at night with a fairly clean national conscience.
Team America: World Police is obviously satire, but it's a lot closer to the truth than most of us really like to admit.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I actually know somebody who thinks this way (Score:4, Insightful)
I actually know somebody who thinks this way. They're not stupid. I think they're just ideologicly bent by hard-right elements in the Republican party. Note, I'm not painting the whole party with this brush. It's just that this element finds its home in the party, and once you start associating with people who think a certain way...
We geeks are not immune to this (Emacs, Ruby, etc... are the only true ways and all other ways should be suppressed).
It seems bloody obvious to a lot of us that if the US persued this course of action we would become the horror of the world, and a large portion of the world would unite to end the horror as it did with nazi Germany.
If you are immersed in hard-right culture, it's a lot less obvious. See also, the Milgram experiment.
Re:Why... (Score:4, Funny)
Who invited Rick Perry? This isn't a Republican Debate!
Re:Why... (Score:5, Interesting)
Bin Laden wasn't trained by the CIA. (In fact, very little of the mujaheddin was trained by the CIA, as the CIA mostly provided intelligence, weapons, and funding.) It's been pretty well established that he brought his own funding and later relied on funding from places like Saudi Arabia. With very few exceptions, he neither trusted Western powers nor did he want their assistance, believing that to do so was to accept help from heathens. Interviews with him by those outside of Muslim circles were rare but telling in how they were approached and conducted.
The mujaheddin was a complex network of resistance forces, and bin Laden was but one very small part of it.
Re: (Score:3)
While what you say may be true, I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that a critical part of stopping the Soviets in Afghanistan was the anti-aircraft weapons provided by the USA. The mujaheddin were getting chewed up by helicopter gunships and negating that advantage was decisive.
Re:Why... (Score:4, Informative)
They were absolutely critical. Once the Hind started serious deployment, the mujaheddin were getting ripped apart because the Hind was much better at nap-of-the-earth flight and thus surprise attacks, and the Afghan rebels had to get something to knock them down. The US was eager to not only slow the Soviet advance but also to get parts from downed aircraft, and would reward those who came up with more salvage with more weapons. The missiles' effectiveness caused Hind pilots to learn to make their birds perform maneuvers that the designers never imagined, and in doing so earned the healthy respect (at least on the battlefield) of mujaheddin warriors. Engineers at Mil and other places started coming up with modifications to try to neutralize the advantages the Afghans now had, much like the US had to do with its various weapon systems in Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan.
The difference was that while the recent wars have perhaps dented the US economy, the Soviet economy was already shaky and the tactics and strategy did not evolve fast enough from a military or political standpoint to slow the losses to a level where it could be sustained, let alone won. Soviet popular opinion was also very much against the war (and had been for years), and contrary to popular belief about the USSR at the time, they could not simply round up a bunch of people and force them to fight. They tried to find a way to save face and end the war at the same time, but ultimately, the losses were too daunting and they had to retreat.
Looking back on some of the articles, the statements that the Soviets made sound a lot like those the US is making. The commanding officer, Lt. Gen. Gromov, made public pronouncements on how Soviet forces were turning over security to the government, slowly drawing down forces in anticipation of leaving the country capable of handling its own defenses. Over the course of a couple of years, the drawdown of 115,000 troops was completed, with Gromov the last to walk across the bridge leading out of the country. One can only hope that more stability comes out of it ca. 2014 than 1989.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
How does calling decorative lighting "psychological war" further their cause?
I my book, that's called making yourself look ridiculous.
Who actually thinks 'birth of the Christian deity' when they see a tree with lights on?
The first thing I think is that It was nice of someone to make the landscape more interesting.
they don't care about looking ridiculous.
it's not like they're publishing that stuff inside NK.
what they care about is giving the impression that they might consider it as first offense, so that they might retaliate against that. in fact they would just use that to beg for more food aid, trying to imply that south was the last aggressor at this point in time(by letting people put up nice lights).
Re: (Score:2)
The first thing I think is that It was nice of someone to make the landscape more interesting.
Which is a capital crime in North Korea. Especially if the lights are any color other than red or gray.