North Korea Threatens South Korea Over Christmas Lights 441
K7DAN writes "North Korea warned South Korea on Sunday of 'unexpected consequences' if Seoul displays Christmas lights near the tense border, and vowed to retaliate for what it called 'psychological warfare.' From the article: 'The tree-shaped, 30 metre-high steel structure on Aegibong hill - some 3km (2 miles) from the border - was illuminated by thousands of small light bulbs last year. It could be seen from the North's major city of Kaesong across the border, according to media reports. Pyongyang has previously accused Seoul of using the tree to spread the Christian message to people inside the secular state.'"
odd all around (Score:5, Insightful)
While the North's reaction sounds predictably paranoid, the article seems to hint that some sort of propaganda is the purpose of the tree, as evidenced by whether it's lit or not being correlated with thawing versus tension of relations. I'm not sure how effective it'd be at spreading a Christian message specifically, but maybe it's intended to spread a sort of generic, "look how awesome it is just across the border" message?
Re:Why... (Score:5, Insightful)
Because of Afghanistan and other places we ignored having a tendency toward biting us in the ass from time to time.
I'm also pretty sure that Japan is quite interested in what North Korea does, given the proximity of the two countries and the cruise missiles that NK has developed...
Re:odd all around (Score:1, Insightful)
Indeed. It's not exactly a very Christian celebration [new2torah.com] anyway. Though it is nice to celebrate every once in a while.
Get with the times, man... (Score:5, Insightful)
The idea that Christmas trees are a symbol of Christianity, rather than some freaky pagan stuff, stolen for a while by Christians, and now firmly entrenched as a coniferous altar of Mammon for youth of all ages and faiths, is patently absurd.
Now, it is unlikely that pro-consumerist psychological warfare will be any more popular with our fabulously haired friend; but he needn't worry about the spread of any but the worldliest of indulgences...
They're just jealous (Score:5, Insightful)
'Cause they don't HAVE any light when the sun's not shining.
N Korea at night:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/dprk-dark.htm [globalsecurity.org]
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Get with the times, man... (Score:5, Insightful)
freaky pagan stuff, stolen for a while by Christians, and now firmly entrenched as a coniferous altar of Mammon for youth of all ages and faiths
I think you hit the nail square on the head. Being a communist county, the mammon-worship is probably what they're most upset about, far more than the Christianity when they're athiests. Why should an athiest fear a god? It makes no sense. It does make sense that a communist country would fear commerce.
Re:Why... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have modpoints, but I'm just at a loss to know what to call this. There is no 'bat-shit insane' mod response.
Re:Since when was Christmas a religious holiday? (Score:4, Insightful)
This would be funnier if it weren't so sad (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm afraid that S. Korea (and the rest of the world) is between a rock and a hard place on how to del with this despot. I mean forget about the small chance of war between the Koreas; a conflict that while producing a very large number of civilian casualties would be over in a week or two with the modern S. Korea army aided by the U.S. quickly recovering from the initial bombardment and then demolishing the N. Korean army.
No I'm talking about the millions who for two generations have led short stunted lives due to starvation and extreme poverty. They have been deprived of any contact with the outside world and have been controlled to an extent that makes 1984 seem like a liberal's paradise. It's really chilling to watch a documentary such as the one made when western doctors went in to provide free critical surgeries to the populace only to see the ones who lives they've saved turn around and condemn their saviors.
One of the main reasons why I do not invest in China is because of their unbending support of N. Korea. Better (they think) to let millions of Koreans die than to let the Americans have an ally abutting them on their northern border. The other reasons include Tibet, Myanmar, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iran and basically all the non-democratic regimes in Africa who they prop up. I fully realize that the West is fully capable of rank hypocrisy but China doesn't even make a pretense of advancing the human condition.
I don't know what to do more than anyone else. Let this horrendous half-century holocaust continue or wage a war which would result on hundreds of thousands of casualties. I think the only way to decide on a firm course of action would be for S. Korea to have a national referendum as to whether or not to save the people who are literally their brothers. This makes planning surprise attack rather difficult though.
(Is "funnier" a legitimate word or not? I'm afraid I'm not a decider).
Re:Why... (Score:5, Insightful)
It would also make us universally-despised by just about everyone on Earth, and the moral equivalent of Genghis Khan. In case you've forgotten, we're supposed to be the good guys. We make occasional mistakes, and occasionally a psychopath slips through the chain of command, but for the most part, we do try to be a force for good. It might be mostly out of enlightened self-interest rather than genuine altruism, but at the end of the day, most of us can go to sleep at night with a fairly clean national conscience.
Team America: World Police is obviously satire, but it's a lot closer to the truth than most of us really like to admit.
The power of the faith (Score:3, Insightful)
It's amazing how even the most oppressive dictator is afraid of a simple Christmas tree.
Re:Someone call Bill O'Reilly (Score:3, Insightful)
We tend to pay too much heed to the number of people killed, and too little to decreasing the quality of life, when doing charts of "who was the evilest". If you add up the joy of life destroyed by Christianity, it doesn't take a big weighting to put Stalin, Hitler and Mao together to shame. And Islam is a close runner-up.
Re:When the North Korean People (Score:5, Insightful)
With a highly unpredictable regime, I'm not sure "try to starve their army to death" is the right approach. Sad and selfish as it is to say, the North Korean people suffering may be the lesser of two evils in this circumstance.
Likewise, one thing that the North Korean regime has been exceptionally good at is deflecting blame. A wholly disconcerting number of the North Korean people really do believe that their suffering is because of the United States and a puppet South Korea. Furthering that suffering may well generate the anger you would be hoping to generate, but there is no guarantee that it is directed at the people it should be directed to.
Honestly, just waiting the North out is probably the best approach. I think Kim Jong-Il is regarded as pretty damn psychopathic, and I don't mean that short of its literal sense. There is simply no telling what he will do. He is also 70 years old. Short of him deciding to go out in a big bang, the amount of harm he can do, personally, is coming to a close. His children are western-educated. This is by no means a guarantee that they will be any better, but it is at least an indication that they understand the depth of the lie they are living in North Korea and has to offer at least some hope that, at bare minimum, they will be more reasonable people to deal with.
If not, once more about them and their ruling style and personalities are known, other measures can be considered. Until then, the status quo is good enough I'm afraid.
Re:When the North Korean People (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, God, no.
Yes, I want the North Korean government to get its well-deserved comeuppance as much as the next guy, but take a look at Seoul on Google Earth. Now drag northwards until you come to the North Korean border. Not very far, is it? Forget fancy missiles, it's within artillery range. It won't matter that they get "(at most) a couple of miles into South Korean territory." By the time they've done so, one of Asia's financial and industrial capitals will lie in ruins. The fact that the already mostly empty shell of Pyongyang will be razed to the ground shortly thereafter is cold comfort.
Re:More detail (Score:5, Insightful)
I wish more people could distinguish more between christmas and christianity ;)
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:More detail (Score:2, Insightful)
I actually know somebody who thinks this way (Score:4, Insightful)
I actually know somebody who thinks this way. They're not stupid. I think they're just ideologicly bent by hard-right elements in the Republican party. Note, I'm not painting the whole party with this brush. It's just that this element finds its home in the party, and once you start associating with people who think a certain way...
We geeks are not immune to this (Emacs, Ruby, etc... are the only true ways and all other ways should be suppressed).
It seems bloody obvious to a lot of us that if the US persued this course of action we would become the horror of the world, and a large portion of the world would unite to end the horror as it did with nazi Germany.
If you are immersed in hard-right culture, it's a lot less obvious. See also, the Milgram experiment.
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a National Geographic documentary you can watch free on Netflix (the Lisa Ling) one that gives a glimpse. Brainwashed citizens, traffic cops directing no traffic, empty roads... etc
People in DPRK live to serve the government. They are effectively peasants and serfs, party members are vassals and the top generals are royalty, with the Kim Jong-il clan as the heriditary monarchy. This state is not communist, it's a throwback to the middle ages, when the King owned all the lands. Other than a little bit of planned economy, it's nothing like communism - because communisn is something people would strive for, not have forced upon them at barrel of gun or threat of dying in one dear monster's labor/re-education camps.
Re:Get with the times, man... (Score:4, Insightful)
As a Christian, I have to agree with the athiests there. There should be no such thing as forced prayer or a forced pledge. Forcing people to recite the Lord's Prayer or the Pledge of Aleigance is just plain wrong; this is the sort of thing you have in dictatorships. Don't bash Christians, bash idiots who want everyone to think and act like them. This includes all religions and all non-religions.
Re:More detail (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure Christmas was a Christian holiday before it became the Hallmark holiday it is known as today. Although a good number of Christians do still celebrate the original in it's original intention.
...and I"m pretty sure it was a Pagan holiday prior to that.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:North Korea is not a "secular state". (Score:4, Insightful)
It's a country in the grip of a deified leader cult. They worship their tyrant and his father in a manner that would have made L. Ron Hubbard or Jim Jones jealous.
-jcr
Since I can't mod you up - This is why I take some offense at the term "secular state" in the summary. First, it's a very religious state where the deity happens to be the creepy "leader" of the country and his equally creepy father. Second, ignoring that reality for a minute and assuming "secular state" really means "doesn't officially acknowledge a creator", America is technically a "secular state". But in America, you can convert to the religion of your choice without worrying that you and your entire family will be thrown into a forced labor camp where you will die.
Re:Someone call Bill O'Reilly (Score:5, Insightful)
Given how much I've failed to love God with all my being, or to love my neighbor as myself, I expect to burn.
Salvation is not based on how much you love God or your neighbor. It's given based on the realization that you *can't* love God and your neighbor perfectly and that you *do* need something else to afford salvation. That is why trusting that Christ has the power to, and will, save you is important ... and furthermore, that He will not only forgive but also give you a "new birth" - or, as Paul puts it, transform your mind, make you a new creation, etc. "Take out this heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh" idea.
I reiterate. Being saved by God is not based on how much you can do, or no one would be saved. It's based on how much Christ has already done and the willingness of one to realize that what Christ has done is entirely sufficient and to trust in that alone for salvation... and to furthermore, continue to pursue after God, truth, and righteousness. (see the book of James, where he discusses the deadness of a faith that has no works to show that it is a real faith).
Re:More detail (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:2, Insightful)
OWS does not advocate for bona fide socialism as it was practiced by the Soviets. They advocate for capitalism moderated with concern for social welfare, as practiced by half of Europe. For some mysterious reasons, Americans call the latter "socialism" as well, which only serves to muddy the issue. Of course, that's exactly what right-wingers like, because this permits catchy rebuttals such as "socialism is bad - Stalin / Mao / Pol Pot practiced it, and just look where it got them!" - which are completely devoid of logic in the context.
Re:Someone call Bill O'Reilly (Score:2, Insightful)
Why do so many Christians believe this? That there is no morality without enforcement by their sadistic deity? There are plenty of non-christian societies which function quite nicely without some threat of eternal punishment.
The simple fact of the matter is that when humans form a society, they decide on rules (many of which are unwritten) that members of that society must adhere to in order to make it work. Those who ignore those rules become outcasts or criminals. Most of the rules boil down to "don't intentionally harm others". Then there are rules that (for good or ill) protect the social hierarchy. That's pretty much it.
Re:More detail (Score:4, Insightful)
So basically NK is worried that their people might see "hey, they got electricity on the other side of the border!"
Re:Pot, kettle, black (Score:2, Insightful)
"North Korea is what an officially atheistic state always looks like."
had to throw that bit in, didn't you?
i agreed with you up to that point, now i'm afraid i might have to discard your whole post for fear of Godly Salmonella contamination from that last sentence.