Britain's Oldest Working Television For Sale 108
If you happen to be in London on April 19th you have a chance to own a piece of history. A Marconi type–702 television set, which was built using England's then secret radar research, is going up for auction at Bonhams Mechanical Music and Scientific Instruments sale. Built in 1936, the set is believed to be the oldest working television in Britain. From the article: "The machine was bought for almost £100 three weeks after television transmissions began. But Mr GB Davis of Dulwich, south–east London would have only been able to able to watch it for a few hours. The nearby Crystal Palace and its transmitter burned down three days after Mr Davis bought the Marconi type–702 set on November 26. The area could not receive pictures again until 1946."
First TV ... (Score:2)
Re:First TV ... (Score:0)
I'm curious... (Score:0)
How many HDMI ports does it have?
Re:I'm curious... (Score:1)
Re:I'm curious... (Score:2)
It had enough to meet the demands of the average 1936 television viewer.
Silly luddites back then thought 640 pixels (Score:2)
Re:I'm curious... (Score:2)
None. But at least it didn't suffer from DRM.
Re:I'm curious... (Score:0)
Re:I'm curious... (Score:2)
The MPAA has sent a team of lawyers to the auction to ensure the set is not used and only for display. The lead attorney said "When considering any potential copyright infringement penalties we must remember that this equipment is able to receive entertainment on many frequencies, each of which could be used to transmit copyright infringing media. This set quite clearly shows that the analog hole is still used and needs to be closed".
Re:I'm curious... (Score:2)
Ah, but the picture was upside down! A carefully placed content-copying inversion decrypting device, ãfYãf©ãf¼, was used. (That's mirror in English)
At last... (Score:1)
Bleeding edge (Score:4, Insightful)
"The nearby Crystal Palace and its transmitter burned down three days after Mr Davis bought the Marconi type–702 set on November 26. The area could not receive pictures again until 1946."
That, to me, is the definition of bleeding edge.
Re:Bleeding edge (Score:2)
What did he manage to watch in those three days? Reruns of Baywatch and Little House on The Prairie...?
Re:Bleeding edge (Score:2)
What did he manage to watch in those three days? Reruns of Baywatch and Little House on The Prairie...?
This was in Britain, you dolt. He was watching Benny Hill and Red Dwarf.
Re:Bleeding edge (Score:2)
Don't be silly! Back then it would have been Mr Cholmondley-Warner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w [youtube.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ivsb79-h90 [youtube.com]
It looks quite modern (Score:2)
Re:It looks quite modern (Score:0)
it is high def... compared to 120 line, or even 30 line televisions...
Re:It looks quite modern (Score:5, Informative)
well, it was capable of receiving both the 240-line Baird and the 405-line EMI systems. so yes, in it's day it was high-def! [screenonline.org.uk]
Re:It looks quite modern (Score:2)
well, it was capable of receiving both the 240-line Baird and the 405-line EMI systems. so yes, in it's day it was high-def! [screenonline.org.uk]
Both obsolete, so it really is not "Working" any more without 625-line ability.
Re:It looks quite modern (Score:1)
Both obsolete, so it really is not "Working" any more without 625-line ability.
Depends what you mean by 'working'. I expect there's still a few 625 to 405 lines converter boxes around (I had one provided in a grotty rented flat in 1986). Maybe you even get one thrown in free if you buy this TV.
And when the analogue signal is turned off across the whole UK next year you'll still be able to use it if you get a freeview box with coax output and run the output of that through the 405 line converter box...
Not quite. (Score:4, Informative)
TV transmissions were moved to Alexandra Palace and continued up until the outbreak of war when there were almost 40,000 TV sets in London. Coverage was fairly widespread so I find it hard to believe that Mr Davis couldn't receive a picture in Dulwich.
Burned down transmitter? (Score:0)
The nearby Crystal Palace and its transmitter burned down three days after Mr Davis bought the Marconi type–702 set
With over the air down, he should have signed up for cable.
Re:Burned down transmitter? (Score:4, Funny)
With over the air down, he should have signed up for cable.
He's probably still on hold with Comcast.
Re:Burned down transmitter? (Score:2)
In 1982, most of the country had 4 TV channels. About 15 years later, some parts of the country got a (really bad) 5th. That was never a problem though, because UK viewers only ever watched countdown, the news, and neighbours. More channels were never really wanted.
The biggest problem with cable (and sky) in the UK, has always been vorderman. Basically you'd get no more vorderman with cable than you would with terrestrial, so it wasn't worth the extra expense. Even after digital TV started broadcasting, the uptake remained slow, because again, no more vorderman for your money. Early on in digital TV broadcasting, ITV digital collapsed spectacularly, and it was only in the aftermath of the collapse that people realised how the vorderman effect worked. Sandwich in some vorderman in the ad break with some vague maths (insurance quotes, loans, anything really), and the channel would succeed. If you graph the number of digital TV viewers in the UK against the amount of vorderman exposure, there is a direct and striking correlation between the two...
Re:Burned down transmitter? (Score:1)
Re:Burned down transmitter? (Score:2)
In 1982, most of the country had 4 TV channels.
Well, the fourth only arrived at the end of 1982. I'm old enough- just- to remember when there were only 3 UK channels (damn, I'm old), and Channel 4 was a big deal to me.
You couldn't imagine anyone really giving a t**s about a new channel these days... partly because there are so many, but also because they're a bit of a muchness. There are God knows how many channels on Freeview, yet not one proper music channel, because the "music" channels discovered they get more viewers when they repeat years old non-music programmes that we've seen before anyway. I mean, we already have E4, did 4 Music really have to be part-sacrificed to become its ersatz second-rate sibling?
vorderman [..] vorderman [..] vorderman [etc.]
Not a big fan of the mercenary exploiter of her own "I'm brainy because I can do arithmetic" image then?
Re:Burned down transmitter? (Score:2)
The problem was, and still is to some extent, that people were blinded by numbers. Televisions would be sold boasting 100 and even 200 vordermans per second (vps), when in reality most people couldn't tell the difference with a 50 vps set. All the time people were being told that high vorderman capability was the future when in reality it was a dead-end technology. I'm not usually an early adopter but when the first vorderman-free TVs came on the market I was first in line.
Mirror, Mirror! (Score:1)
Re:Mirror, Mirror! (Score:2)
That mirror will be performing a vertical flip, so I'd expect the picture to be the same way round horizontally as any other TV.
Re:Mirror, Mirror! (Score:3)
wow, how does it know to do a vertical flip and not a horizontal one?
Re:Mirror, Mirror! (Score:3)
Re:Mirror, Mirror! (Score:2)
"You need an upside down concave or convex mirror depending on the hemisphere you are in"
nice, lol!
Re:Mirror, Mirror! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Mirror, Mirror! (Score:0)
And that's why they have to replace every piece of text ever filmed with its mirror image so it looks right on screen. Or not.
Re:Mirror, Mirror! (Score:2)
Re:Mirror, Mirror! (Score:2)
Doctor Who (Score:0)
Am I the only one who read this and immediately thought of a Doctor Who episode? I can't recall the name, but I know it was a David Tennant episode. It was also his first season as he was still travelling with Rose Tyler. Come on, Slashdot! I know you guys know!
Re:Doctor Who (Score:2)
Am I the only one who read this and immediately thought of a Doctor Who episode? I can't recall the name, but I know it was a David Tennant episode. It was also his first season as he was still travelling with Rose Tyler. Come on, Slashdot! I know you guys know!
Hungry! HUNGRY!
Re:Doctor Who (Score:2)
It was titled "The Idiot's Lantern" - series 2, episode 7.
Re:Doctor Who (Score:2)
Re:Doctor Who (Score:2)
Re:Doctor Who (Score:0)
that would be
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Idiot's_Lantern
Perhaps the oldest ELECTRONIC television... (Score:0)
There are MANY original mechanical sets that pre-date that.
Do they still work? (Score:2)
Also I guess we have to define what it means to still be working. Did the UK make the conversion to all digital yet like the US, or are there still analog broadcasts?
If they haven't gone all digital, then it's possible that this set can still receive programming, whereas a set bought in the U.S. only a few years ago doesn't work without the addition of a converter box.
Re:Do they still work? (Score:0)
The article is about a 405 line television. It hasn't been able to receive programming since 1985.
Re:Do they still work? (Score:1)
Not that you'd really want to, of course, but it could be done!
Re:Do they still work? (Score:2)
Re:Do they still work? (Score:2)
If you can remember analogue video recorders (those things that took the big plastic boxes called "video tapes") then they would quite happily record 405 line or 625 line video. The lack of colour subcarrier was no problem (stick a black and white TV camera into a video recorder, and it'll be perfectly happy to record it) and since a single frame of video is recorded on each scan of the tape, it doesn't really matter how many lines are in it as long as you've got 50 of the per second.
I've actually got some old Philips N1700 tapes with 405-line Schools TV programmes from the late 1970s. Well, that's if they haven't all stuck together or gone foosty.
Re:Do they still work? (Score:2)
Re:Do they still work? (Score:2)
If you live close to the northern border you can pick up Canadian analog broadcasts. Perhaps the same in the south with Mexican broadcasts?
But... (Score:1)
Of course not! (Score:1)
Kewl! (Score:0)
I went to school in Dulwich (Dulwich College) back in the early 60's, and my sister lived there from the 70's into the 90's. A nice area to live, for sure! Anyway, given family history (we are natives of the USofA), the coincidence is interesting... :-)
Background, please? (Score:2)
What is a "television" in the first place? I'd heard about it from time to time -- mainly as something that old people watch, or that my parents used to talk about watching. One explanation I've gotten is that it's like "youtube with streaming-only, and a number of channels limited to the hundreds".
That must have been pretty boring.
Re:Background, please? (Score:0)
Re:Background, please? (Score:2)
Dunno either, I flunked ancient history.
Re:Background, please? (Score:0)
Limited to the hundreds?
Man, what country are you in? Maybe you are thinking of something else... Television is about three or four channels. Maybe a dozen in some modern countries. In the UK it was two channels + 1 until the eighties IIRC (i mean eighties of the 20th century). In Italy it was three channels + some local ones.
Re:Background, please? (Score:2)
Back in my day, we couldn't even participate in massive racist troll wars in the comments section, because there was no comments section.
Also, our version of rickrolling was to call someone on the phone and get them to change the channel to VH1.
Re:Background, please? (Score:1)
What is a "television" in the first place?
What's needed is a definition of the word. Taking the word apart, into tele and vision, and comparing with known words should get us close. A telescope is something used to watch the neighbors have sex. A scope is used to see distant targets, so the tele part must be the bit about sex. So we can guess that the vision part of the word must make the definition sex vision. Fairly descriptive of what that box is usually used for.
Re:Background, please? (Score:2)
It's like YouTube, but given that this is in the UK and not america, it's used to watch things called "programmes" instead of ads, and the viewing area isn't surrounded by hordes of drooling morons with their egos permanently rammed into the shift key.
It's unsurprising you might find it a bit strange.
Second television. (Score:3)
Yeah, that's why it was so much harder to invent the telephone. You can invent only one television if you want, but you have to simultaneously invent two telephones.
~Loyal
Re:Second television. (Score:2)
> You can invent only one television if you want, but you have to simultaneously invent two telephones.
Ehh ? Not sure what you mean, but surely to 'invert' TV you also have to 'invent' the transmitter and the programming to be aired ?
Re:Second television. (Score:1)
Re:Second television. (Score:2)
How hard can the programming be? Just film gorillas chest thumping and chimps flinging poo and you have CSPAN covered.
Re:Second television. (Score:0)
What a silly statement. You don't have to invent two telephones, you just have to *build* two telephones. What you have to invent is a speaker, a microphone and the system to transfer between the two. This is really simple compared to inventing a video camera and video display system, plus the method for encoding and transmitting the signals.
On TV ... (Score:3)
If you track down The Secret Life of Machines Series 1, The Television Set [youtube.com] you can see this sort of set (perhaps even this very set) being demonstrated.
AIUI you wouldn't want to turn this on for very long, or at least not without a fire extinguisher handy. Some of the electronics (capacitors I think?) are made of paper and after all this time have dried out and are prone to catching fire.
Rich.
Re:On TV ... (Score:0)
The capacitors have abeen replaced where appropriate - this is a worker!
Re:On TV ... (Score:2)
You mean, like, you could actually REPAIR TVs back then? Wow!
Re:On TV ... (Score:2)
You mean, like, you could actually REPAIR TVs back then? Wow!
My father-in-law made a survivable living repairing TVs for most of his life. Even before the advent of flat screens and HD televisions, it got to the point where "repair" meant spending about as much as just buying a new television, simply because it was no longer a case of swapping out a capacitor or being able to replace some honkin' big TTL chip. He'd tell people that it didn't make sense to spend that much, yet some are set in their way of thinking and would still insist on having their existing set repaired.
I'm not sure that's a bad thing, really, since it is friendlier (relatively) to the planet - but I don't think most people nowadays would spend the same money just to maintain older tech versus getting the current gen.
Re:On TV ... (Score:1)
Electronics repair techs are a dying (or dead) breed. Everyone I know who used to do that stuff has either died or moved on to other things. Few folks even know what a capacitor is, and even fewer know how to determine its size or even whether it's actually working.
Re:On TV ... (Score:3)
It's worth pointing out that on theSecret Life of Machines website [secretlifeofmachines.com] it tell you that you are explicitly allowed to download copies from the Internet. It's worth getting all three series.
Re:On TV ... (Score:2)
one collector's sets within part 2 of that video [youtube.com]
Re:On TV ... (Score:2)
Some of the electronics (capacitors I think?) are made of paper and after all this time have dried out and are prone to catching fire.
You're thinking of electrolytic capacitors. These have one plate made of rolled up metal foil, the other of a conductive liquid, and a thin insulator made as a coating on the metal plate by electrochemical reaction between the metal and chemicals in the liquid, driven by the applied voltage. They don't dry out unless the seals fail. Minor defects in the insulating coating are healed by the current through them.
They're used mainly for power supply filtering, where you need a LOT of capacitance in a reasonably-sized package.
The problem you have heard about is that, if the set is left unpowered for a couple decades, the insulating coating degrades. If it is then switched back on with normal supply voltage, the coating is too thin to resist the applied voltage. It breaks down, large current is drawn, the liquid boils, and the can ruptures, releasing a jet of stinky crud or possibly a small detonation.
The cure is to initially apply a LOW voltage to a decades-idle set for a few hours, ramping it up to normal volatge over a day or so. This rebuilds the insulating coating and things then operate normally. A "variac" variable transformer between the line cord and the wall power is the usual tool for this.
Ceramic capacitors and foil/waxed-paper capacitors don't have this breakdown mode. They'll survive long shutdowns just fine (unless roaches eat the waxed paper versions or the device is stored in extreme heat that melts the wax). Their main failure mode is insulation puncture due to overvoltage spikes. Carbon and metal resistors also survive long shutdowns just fine, with failures mainly from overheating due to other flaws putting too much current through them.
Re:On TV ... (Score:2)
One of my all time favourite shows! You can download (legally) every episode here: http://www.exploratorium.edu/ronh/SLOM/index.html [exploratorium.edu]
Re:On TV ... (Score:0)
If you track down The Secret Life of Machines Series 1, The Television Set [youtube.com] you can see this sort of set (perhaps even this very set) being demonstrated.
AIUI you wouldn't want to turn this on for very long, or at least not without a fire extinguisher handy. Some of the electronics (capacitors I think?) are made of paper and after all this time have dried out and are prone to catching fire.
Rich.
It's British electronics. It was prone to catching fire the moment it was first completed.
Q: Why do Brits drink warm beer?
A: Brits have Lucas refrigerators.
more details (Score:4, Informative)
What a crap article, they couldn't even find a http://www.earlytelevision.org/images/marconi-702-hd.jpg [slashdot.org] of the thing.
here's [blueyonder.co.uk] some more technical info on this TV.
and GB is still broadcasting analog? (Score:0)
If not then this set will go blank again... somebody quick! Please make an arduino youtube-to-analogtv converter!
Re:and GB is still broadcasting analog? (Score:0)
This is a 405 line VHF receiver. It hasn't been able to receive broadcasts in Britain since 1985.
where do you put the penguin? (Score:0)
I thought all respectable British tele's had a penguin perched on top of them. Or did at one time.
I don't think that is the oldest! (Score:2)
Re:I don't think that is the oldest! (Score:2)
It doesn't do PAL - I think colour broadcasts at that time would be optimistic (OK, Baird did mechanical colour TV in 1928, and electronic in 1939).
It's the long-obsolete 405 line standard.
come on, my 701 is older (Score:1)
Re:come on, my 701 is older (Score:0)
pics or it didn't happen.
Fixed prize for more than 50 years (Score:2)
The television is one of those products which has had a price of about £100 to £1000 for more than 50 years. It is cool to see that it applies to the Marconi type 702 too!
Irony (Score:1)
Such irony that it is being sold at a time when TV is no longer worth watching.
Ob. geek (Score:2)
>The nearby Crystal Palace and its transmitter burned down three days after Mr Davis bought the Marconi type–702 set on November 26.
Didn't I see that on Dr. Who?
Re:Ob. geek (Score:2)
Didn't I see Dr. Who on that?
FTFY
Re:Ob. geek (Score:2)
You are absolutely right.
Continuing the original thought, one of the problems of an American watching Dr. Who is that we don't get some of the more obscure British historical references.
Re:Ob. geek (Score:2)
rare? (Score:2)
"There are more 18th century Stradivarius violins in existence that pre-war TVs "
I think THAT is telling. Were there ANY television broadcasts in the US in 1936? I think there were some experimental stations in NYC, and maybe in LA but other than that.....
Re:rare? (Score:2)
There's a list of old stations here [wikimedia.org]. Apparently there were quite a few, although most of them seem to have been set up for mechanical tv sets.
Britain's Oldest Working Television Star For Sale (Score:0)
Cool I thought Patrick MacNee had retired.
tv tax? (Score:2)
If you buy this as an antique do you still have to pay the tv tax?
Re:tv tax? (Score:1)
Yes, and you'll also need to buy a tube based converter box to be able to watch HD content.
Re:tv tax? (Score:0)
Yes of course you do, although only the cheaper black and white.
You don't think the government are going to pass up an opportunity to extract money from their subjects do you?
Re:tv tax? (Score:0)
If by "tv tax" you mean the television license, then no.
A television licence is only required for equipment used for the reception of live television broadcasts.
This TV is an obsolete 405 line VHF set, there have been no signals for it to receive since 1985
Mortaaaaal Kombaaaaat (Score:0)
Sorry, will be too busy play Mortal Kombat on 4/19 to be there.
Finish Him!
Yeah but (Score:0)
Does it run Linux..
I didn't realize (Score:2)
Re:Crime of Speculative Accumulation (Score:0)
You are full of shit.