Congress Suggests Moat, Electronic Fence To Protect White House 213
PolygamousRanchKid writes Acting Secret Service director Joseph Clancy on Wednesday faced a number of tough questions from the House Judiciary Committee about the fence jumper who made it deep into the White House. But along with the tough questions, Clancy fielded a couple eyebrow raising suggestions on how to better protect the president's home. "Would a moat, water six feet around, be kind of attractive and effective?" Rep. Steve Cohen, D-Tenn., asked with trepidation. Rep. Louie Gohmert, R-Texas, asked: “Would you be in favor of removing the fence around the White House and having, maybe, a virtual or electronic fence around it?” Clancy liked the moat idea better than the electric fence. “My knee-jerk reaction to that would be no, sir,” he told Gohmert. “Partly because of the number of tourists that come up Pennsylvania Avenue and come up to that area.”
Moat? Electric fence? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Moat? Electric fence? (Score:5, Funny)
So long as it is effective in keeping the President from escaping, I'm all for it.
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So long as it is effective in keeping the President from escaping, I'm all for it.
Haha. Pretty much this.
The best way to make the White House safe is to put a President in it who people don't want to kill all the time.
Re:Moat? Electric fence? (Score:4, Funny)
"Hey, Joe, now that we've finished surrounding the Capitol building lawns with mines, we've still got a bunch of extra mines. What should we do with them?"
"They're not extra. They said ring the building, so the plans are to mine the walks and driveways, too. Maybe if they wrote the policy better, they'd have thought to add an access route."
Re:Moat? Electric fence? (Score:5, Funny)
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Dig the moat, set mines....etc.
That would solve a LOT of problems and actually be within the mandates the federal govt has from the Constitution....protecting our borders.
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Well mines are pretty frowned upon. Mexicans and Canadians are both capable of swimming so moats wouldn't actually keep anyone out.
So against treaties and completely ineffectual.. You're right- that does sound like it is within the mandates of the US government.
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Just locate the "hot" end of the firing range along the MX border.
Anything that crosses into it...is a valid target. I figure after about 4-5 boxes of .50cal ammo, word will get around and we won't have the illegal crossing problems we currently are saddled with...
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Hmm. You could call it an Iron Curtain too, that's a nifty name. Set up some checkpoints for legitimate visitors, maybe just letters for names - the phonetic alphabet might work here.
Who knows, maybe it'll prove as impervious as its namesake. i.e. Not very.
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They're just pointing out the hypocrisy of politicians being protected by guns and fences, while telling citizens they can't have guns and that a fence isn't needed on our nations borders (despite cartels and bad guys with known terrorist ties crossing daily).
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They're just pointing out the hypocrisy of politicians being protected by guns and fences, while telling citizens they can't have guns and that a fence isn't needed on our nations borders (despite cartels and bad guys with known terrorist ties crossing daily).
Downtown Washington is littered with dozens of federal buildings, each having its own set of trained security and metal detectors and the like. We spend a fortune on it.
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You have to be careful where you stand in DC or you'll attract the attention of security. I was at the National Holocaust Museum and I had stepped outside to take a phone call. So I'm standing on the sidewalk, talking, and a guard marches over and orders me to leave. The museum is next to a Treasury building, and loitering near a government building is strictly verboten, plebeian. Seriously. You can't stand on a public sidewalk now.
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They're just pointing out the hypocrisy of politicians being protected by guns and fences, while telling citizens they can't have guns and that a fence isn't needed on our nations borders (despite cartels and bad guys with known terrorist ties crossing daily).
No, actually it's a bit worse than that. Their comments regarding the concern of tourist accessibility says far more about the priority of capitalism (tourism) than it does security.
Either the White House is tourist attraction, or it is not. It's pretty damn black and white at this point. Either open it up or lock it down, but let's stop trying to meet somewhere in the middle before someone earmarks a billion or ten in taxpayer money, only to end up with a twenty-billion dollar moat that was defeated by
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Vaulting poles are now classified as security circumvention devices and are subject to strict licensing and control.
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The White House is a (relatively) small building which faces a real, live, no-shit security threat for which armed guards and big fences are a rational, effective, and cost-effective response.
Big fences along the entirety of the United States land border and random citizens arming themselves to the teeth, by contrast, are dumb responses to the threats which the country, as a whole, faces - not leas
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Statistically speaking, an average person in American is far, far more likely to be attacked and need to defend themselves than a federal building.
Pretty obvious, since if you actually break down the "people shot" statistic you find the vast majority were felons to begin with.
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Or, conversely, the politicians that ban guns in all federal buildings yet believe wholeheartedly that anyone should be able to carry semi-automatic assault rifles into their local Walmart.
That's because they never do, have or will go into a walmart.
Re: Moat? Electric fence? (Score:2)
You mean, you've discovered politicians do one intelligent thing? Albeit for stupid reasons.
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Or, conversely, the politicians that ban guns in all federal buildings yet believe wholeheartedly that anyone should be able to carry semi-automatic assault rifles into their local Walmart.
Those tend not to be the same politicians.
Go on, find me one politician that complains that visitors to his office aren't allowed to come in with a Smith & Weston hanging from their waist....
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Well, if they truly believe that guns are good for warding off thieves and rapists then of course they wouldn't want any guns around themselves!
Re:Moat? Electric fence? (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh, and it also reminds me of posts to technical
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Or instead of water, use lava.
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Or instead of water, use lava.
Sharks with frickin' laser beams!
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Or instead of water, use lava.
Sharks with frickin' laser beams!
No, use grizzly bears in a bear moat:
http://www.castle.ckrumlov.cz/... [ckrumlov.cz]
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If they were going to put it to a vote, I would push for a gopher moat. [youtube.com]
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Be thankful - the alternative might have been Dwarf Fortress and then you'd have never dared try the bridge..
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Even better. Ever been to an airport in Mexico? I want that kind of heart-warming experience.
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The International Campaign to Ban Landmines has sought to ban land mines culminating in the 1997 Ottawa Treaty, although this treaty has not yet been accepted by a number of countries including the USA. Matter of fact, the US is one of the largest producers of land mines.
Boiling oil (Score:2)
I think pouring boiling oil from the roof would be effective. I mean would you try to make a run for it knowing that they would not just stop you but actually try to pour boiling oil on you? hell no.
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Dropping boiling oil on people?
Re: Moat? Electric fence? (Score:3)
That's the problem. One or two civilized actions and people will start expecting it. Before long, the country will be peaceful and almost murder free. It is absolutely essential, to maintain current levels of paranoia, schizophrenia and xenophobia, to eliminate all vestiges of ethics and morality.
DEW (Score:2)
Just need this [blogspot.com].
(BTW, I thought for several years that particular episode [blogspot.com] was the best thing ever on television to that point, until I realized it was blatant rip-off -- excuse me, homage -- of 2001.)
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It seems he's already answered, with the Toybota. [wikia.com]
Moat (Score:2)
One man's moat.... (Score:3)
.
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It's true: Pictured: Naked Briton arrested after going for a swim in Tokyo's sacred Imperial Palace moat [dailymail.co.uk]
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Haha.
It's ok, I'm not laughing at you : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H... [wikipedia.org]
Maybe they want alligators in the moat! (Score:2)
Or theyâ(TM)ll want a higher fence. Maybe they'll need a moat. Maybe they want alligators in the moat! They'll never be satisfied, and I understand that. That's politics. But the truth is the measures we've put in place are getting results."
â" President Obama in El Paso, TX
Sharks (Score:5, Funny)
This moat needs sharks with lasers attached to their heads!!
Plant some Pampus Grass and Thistles (Score:2)
Jefferson (Score:4, Interesting)
Jefferson used to complain about the long line of people at the White House who were there to see him - most of them looking for a job hand-out, but some with legitimate issues for him to deal with.
Perhaps Congress could start by dissolving the enivronment that has caused so many people to want to do antisocial things like harming a President, who is mostly supposed to be a CEO of the government, and occasionally lead a defensive war against the country.
Oh, nm, that's just crazy-talk. Might as well fill the moat with hunter-killer boats from Lockheed.
So many? (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps Congress could start by dissolving the enivronment that has caused so many people to want to do antisocial things
Between 2000 and now there have been 14 "intruders" [wikipedia.org] at the White House. Only one of which actually broke into the building. These intruders include a toddler who squeezed through the fence and a couple who crashed a Sate dinner. That is an average of less than one per year who had antisocial intent. From a population of 360 million less than one per year is not many.
Re:So many? (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps Congress could start by dissolving the enivronment that has caused so many people to want to do antisocial things
Between 2000 and now there have been 14 "intruders" [wikipedia.org] at the White House. Only one of which actually broke into the building. These intruders include a toddler who squeezed through the fence and a couple who crashed a Sate dinner. That is an average of less than one per year who had antisocial intent. From a population of 360 million less than one per year is not many.
But you don't understand, in the post 9-11 world we don't assess the real risks. Only the imaginary ones.
And end up paying billions/trillions of dollars for nothing.
Virtual Fence? (Score:5, Funny)
That said, I like Punji stake pits as an idea. Or high-tension trampolines that snap-release and launch plumetters back into the air. Hook it to a live web-stream.
Its all fun and games until someone loses an eye (Score:2)
Perhaps the moat is something to build inside the White-house fence, but then fill it with balls, and you have the national ball pit. We could mount automatic sentry turrets on the fence that are armed with Nerf ammo, with the idea that anyone trying to jump the fence will get hit with a barrage of Nerf darts as a warning.
Re: Its all fun and games until someone loses an e (Score:2)
Wasn't that done in User Friendly?
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Where has our humanity gone? (Score:2)
This poor guy was simply looking for work in order to be able to support his family back home. All he wanted was a better life.. I'm sure he's a hardworking, industrious, salt of the earth type... the type who made this country great!
Amnesty, a drivers license, and a green card folks. That's what this man needs, not a prison term.
Eletronic? (Score:2)
Seriously, a news for nerds site can't get the word electronic correct in a article headline? Amazing editing going on there, Slashdot.
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They got it right. Eletronic refers to the new state of the art robotic elephants. They look a bit like Chisulo in body armor, but with more electricity and less biology.
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It's just vanity (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously if the politicians are so afraid of "the masses" then maybe they should start actually representing those masses like they're supposed to.
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For a country that believes so strongly in the free market, I can't see the economic logic behind providing any security for politicians. There's not exactly a shortage of candidates, so the correct free market response is to cancel all publicly-funded security for presidents, actual or potential, at least until the year of Cletus v Putin.
And I'm sure in a free market society, simple vanity wouldn't trump anything so fundamental as basic economics, would it?
Expertise in Congress? (Score:3)
Damned if you do damned if you don't (Score:5, Insightful)
Personal security everywhere has a few conflicting objectives.
- Protect the person from physical threats
- Do not appear intimidating to the general public
- React quickly to perceived threats
- Do not overreact to perceived threats
Sure you could put a concrete wall around the White House and shoot anyone who climbed over but that would be very bad.
This incident [washingtonpost.com] has been blown way out of proportion. Lets look at what really happened.
1. I guy jumps a fence.
2. He runs across the lawn. He was seen at this point and an alarm was triggered (the problem is that the alarm was muted for some reason)
3. He enters an unlocked door (Which would have been locked had the alarm sounded).
4. He runs past a startled security guard (The one who would have locked the door if the alarm had sounded).
5. He runs up the stairs and across a long room.
6. He is tackled by a counterassault agent.
The only people he encountered were security personnel and he did not damage anything and harmed no one.
Lets look at what contributed to the incident.
1. He was not shot as he had no visible weapons.
2. The door to remain unlocked because the alarm was muted. The article claims that is was muted on the orders of the Usher's office
3. The President was in the process of leaving the building. During movement security is concentrated around the president as that is when he is most vulnerable. That left the front lawn less protected as there was less there to protect.
How to fix the issue?
1. Never mute the alarms
2. Connect the front door lock to the alarm so it locks when the alarm goes off.
Those are simple solutions to a small problem.
Mr Gonzalez is a Iraq War veteran with mental health issue. Though he had a knife on him he never brandished it and no one knew of it's existence until he was arrested. What do you think the comments would have been if it turned out that an unarmed Iraq War veteran with PTSD was shot dead while trying to enter the White House? So the Secret Service has to choose between being damned for letting someone into an an empty area of the White House or damned for shooting an unarmed Iraq War veteran with PTSD. You choose.
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Dude, a guy with a knife and a limp ran several hundred yards, unhindered, into the most secure building on earth. They were Lucky he was mentally deranged and not really actually out to hurt anyone. Had he been, he could have easily taken out half the building with an ied.
The secret service isn't being criticized for failing to do the impossible.
They are being criticized for failing to stop just about the easiest to stop assailant you could imagine.
They guy should have had a bullet in his chest before his
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Ever been to DC? One could 'attack' the White House with an RPG, a short-range rocket or any number of short-medium range military equipment and do serious damage. The problem is there is not 'really' anything there to kill or damage, the true leaders are dispersed in offices on Wall Street.
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uh, the most secure facility on Earth is Mount Weather. If you're not cleared to enter, they will kill you if you approach it.
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It's always good practice to do an incident review when something bad happens, to find gaps in existing processes and taking some time to reflect if there's any meaningful improvement that can be done.
What I don't like is that the answer is never to leave things as is. Out of an incident review, on anything from IT to White House security, there is always enormous pressure to do *something* tangible, whether that so
A moat? (Score:2)
What next? Will the President fart in our general direction?
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Have you not been paying attention recently?
Don't hide the security, decorate it (Score:3)
Do what the Brits do: create some fun and fanciful traditional-like uniform for the guards, and post 2 guards near the front gate, 2 near the front door, and one on each corner of the building.
Maybe something like this:
http://www.halloweencostumes.c... [halloweencostumes.com]
(Without the boyish face, though.)
Mistakes (Score:5, Insightful)
I love this quote from this article; [nytimes.com]
“I worry about her whole approach,” said Representative Jason Chaffetz, Republican of Utah, who is the chairman of a subcommittee that on Monday scheduled a hearing on the incident for next week. “I do question the director’s leadership. This is a place where we can never, ever make a mistake.”
This just shows how little Representative Jason Chaffetz actually knows about personal security. Security Agents are human and will make mistakes. Security systems are designed to take that into consideration by designing security in layers. One or more layers may be breached due to mistakes but unless the person being secured is harmed then the system worked. Lets look at what happened.
1. He climbed the fence. While a security layer it is designed to deter entry not prevent entry. Layer worked as designed.
2. He ran across the lawn and was seen by a security agent who sounded the alarm. Security layer worked as designed.
3. He opened the door. Layer failed due to alarm being muted.
4. He ran past startled security guard. Layer failed due to alarm being muted.
5. He ran up some stairs and was tackled by counter assault agent. Security layer successful.
There were probably a few more security layers between that point and the President. The only mistakes I see are the alarm being muted and the door not being automatically locked by the alarm. Would you rather have snipers shooting anyone who climbs over the fence?
Military bases have moats (Score:2)
I live in Tucson, Arizona. We have one air-force base and one army national guard base. Both have a moat around them and a fence on both sides of the moat, and a bridge to the inspection station.
Here's a picture of the bridge over the moat [google.com].
Note the lack of water. Tucson, Arizona. It's a dry heat.
If it's good enough for military bases, it's good enough for the President. Also Congress. And if they continue to perform so well in representing us, they can be forced to swim it.
E
Cinderella's Castle (Score:2)
Just move the president to Cinderella's Castle in the Magic Kingdom. No more fanciful than what passes for leadership inside the White House.
That's a good start. (Score:2)
What's am Eletronic fence (Score:2)
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Obligatory (Score:2)
Postlady: When did you get a pool?
Lois: Oh, it's a moat. I know it's silly but my husband thinks our family needs extra protection now that we're rich.
Postlady: Does it work?
Lois: Well... it does keep the Black Knight at bay.
i get it, dems lost the last election (Score:2)
This is Slashdot, so new we are rewarded with a litany of "look how stupid congress is" stories.
The fact is, the conversation is clearly brainstorming, more of a signal that lateral thinking was welcome, as the secret service clearly hasn't thought if anything effective.
only read the fuckin' headline (Score:2)
and immediately thought "Yeah, with sharks with fucking lasers mounted on their heads." ::Doctor_Evil_Laugh::
Virtual Fence? (Score:2)
Shock Collars for everyone (Score:2)
redundancy (Score:4, Interesting)
In tech, we solve single-point-of-failure issues with redundancy.
You guys should have not one, but several reserve presidents, and a few reserve headquarters, and if one of them gets blown up, just don't make it a big deal.
That sounds like sarcasm, but really, it's not. Just framed a bit tongue-in-cheek. But how often do you hear members of the senate being targets of assassination attempts? The senate is as important as the president, but thanks to using a highly distributed system with extreme redundancy, they are far less interesting targets.
But I guess we as human beings still have minds from 50,000 years ago and we want to see a leader to our tribe. The concept of shared leadership is brilliant, but too advanced for our stone-age brains.
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But I guess we as human beings still have minds from 50,000 years ago and we want to see a leader to our tribe. The concept of shared leadership is brilliant, but too advanced for our stone-age brains.
I think the evolutionary psychology line is going too far. I don't think anyone is suggesting that losing the president will make us all leaderless and lost. Instead, that losing the president is a substantial blow that's best avoided. The reason for this is that the "shared leaders" you describe do not have equal seniority. So if you lose the top one, you still require a reshuffle and there will still be disruption. Further, the president is the figurehead of the nation and it is a blow to morale if he is
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I think the evolutionary psychology line is going too far. I don't think anyone is suggesting that losing the president will make us all leaderless and lost. Instead, that losing the president is a substantial blow that's best avoided. The reason for this is that the "shared leaders" you describe do not have equal seniority. So if you lose the top one, you still require a reshuffle and there will still be disruption. Further, the president is the figurehead of the nation and it is a blow to morale if he is taken out. For similar reasons, there was a big security boost around the statue of liberty following 9/11. Symbols matter, that's all.
I think you misunderstood his point—though your point is good too.
But what I read in Tom's post was that the reason we have a single President in the first place, rather than some sort of coequal ruling council, is because of our primitive desire for single, focused leadership.
Dan Aris
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There are several (4 or 5 iirc) redundant presidents specified in the constitution, the first of which is called the vice president. There is essentially a redundant Washington, DC as well, buried deep in a bunker somewhere. I forget the name of the place, it was set up during the Cold War in case of nuclear attack.
Looks like 17 to me(would be 18 but one of them is a naturalized citizen and thus ineligible)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U... [wikipedia.org]
Seems obvious to me. (Score:2)
The Knights Hospitalers (I think, could have been Templars) had a fortress that was never conquered. Attackers would be bottlenecked, relative to defenders, were forever being harassed on the flanks and faced numerous blind corners.
Simply build a reproduction of this fortress around the White House. They can build a moat around it, if they like. Ringed by an electric fence. Oh, the moat needs sharks with lasers. Any suggestion for shark species?
The great thing about this is that the White House can remain a
Hunger Games Approach (Score:2)
Wider perimeter (Score:2)
A moat is excessively expensive, really unnecessary, an eyesore, and is still not going to really stop or hinder a marine who is determined. Furthermore, the White House is supposed to be a place where people from the public can indeed come; it's not supposed to be a castle or an ivory tower. It should only be fort knox during those times when the president is home.
As for ensuring the president's security; I suggest an additional wider perimeter with a triple-layer fence, with all vehicles and person
Re:Shoot one (Score:4, Insightful)
So you think summary execution is the appropriate punishment for simple trespass?
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So you think summary execution is the appropriate punishment for simple trespass?
If you can't do the time don't do the crime.
(ps to the humour impaired, this is a joke, not a troll)
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So in your mind, the relationship between the Secret Service and the general public should be modeled on how the US military responds to an invading army?
Re:Shoot one (Score:4, Insightful)
So in your mind, the relationship between the Secret Service and the general public should be modeled on how the US military responds to an invading army?
Sounds good to me. Why continue with the illusion that American government is "of the people, by the people, for the people." It's not. Why continue the illusion it is?
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He's not advocating tyranny, he's pointing out that the government is already tyrannical, and thus doesn't understand why they try to pretend they're not.
Hence the repetitious use of the word, "illusion."
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This is a relatively unimportant subject, and also a non-political one. Any Congressman caught talking about this, is outed as a totally useless person.
But you repeat yourself. With apologies to Mark Twain.
Re:Shoot one (Score:5, Funny)
Shoot one or two of the fence jumpers. The frequency of fence jumping will drop to almost nothing. Then, when some knucklehead does jump the fence you'll know it's a genuine threat and you may open fire on that one as well.
Bullets are cheaper than moats and cyber fence thingies.
If Obama were consistent, he'd let the people who illegally jump the White House fence live in the White House.
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No, if he were consistent he would throw them back over the fence in higher numbers than any of his predecessors.
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Those now legalized illegals will be replaced with new illegals to occupy the jobs the no longer illegals can no longer legally work.
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Shoot one or two of the fence jumpers. The frequency of fence jumping will drop to almost nothing.
It already is almost nothing - 99.8% of days, nobody jumps the fence. If you exclude a few ridiculous cases (that small child, for example), it goes to 99.9% -- as everyone who's ever worked on SLAs knows, beyond that the cost of additional nines is quite dramatic.
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Also, it wouldn't take long before the first "innocent bystander" would be hit by a ricocheting bullet or a shrapnel.
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So we should provide the security through fear of summary execution without trial or due process?
Stupid troll is stupid.
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That is why they need the moat - somewhere for the sharks to live in!
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The closest English-speaking nation to the USA is the UK,
Kanuckistanis don't speak English any more?
Or has Canada been merged with the US while I wasn't looking?
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oh, you didn't spot the Grenadier Guard at the gates and patrolling the perimeter of Buckingham Palace 24/7, then? You know the ones, they're wondering around with fucking SA-80 rifles. There's the Household Cavalry just up the Mall there, too - 2400 men on horseback with some fucking big guns mounted on wagons. They have Royal Marines around Windsor Castle, and Royal Scots Dragoon Guards around Balmoral. They are all very visible, but you don't see all of them unless you really look - at which point, you b