Angry Windows Pioneer Blogs 'Screw You, Microsoft Edge' (charlespetzold.com) 241
68-year-old technology writer Charles Petzold wrote about Windows programming for 25 years, including several books published by Microsoft Press. In 1994 he was one of seven "Windows Pioneers" honored in a special ceremony (with an award presented by Bill Gates), and the company has also recognized him with their "Most Valuable Professional" award.
Petzold just wrote a blog post titled "Screw you, Microsoft Edge" when the browser spontaneously decided to advise him of a discount at Walmart. Recently while searching for a book on Bookshop.org, I was interrupted by a popup apparently generated by Microsoft Edge advising me of an alternative... Excuse me?
The assumption that I need help buying a book is the biggest insult I've encountered on Windows since the days of Clippy.
A further insult is the implication that I make buying decisions based solely on price... I might prefer a retailer that focuses solely on books, or a retailer that is not a large chain. More generally, I might make a decision based on the company's carbon footprint, or perhaps their reputation in paying fair wages, or what political candidates and movements they support, or whether the CEO uses his wealth to launch himself into space.
Of course, these concepts are entirely beyond the scope of Edge's braindead algorithm that apparently knows only whether one number is larger than another.
In November Microsoft had described the upcoming popups announcing better prices as "a proactive price comparison experience that meets you where you shop. When you're shopping, Microsoft Edge will check prices at competing retailers to let you know if a lower price is available elsewhere..."
Promising there'd be even more shopping experiences coming, they'd added, "we'd love to hear what you think of them so far!"
Petzold just wrote a blog post titled "Screw you, Microsoft Edge" when the browser spontaneously decided to advise him of a discount at Walmart. Recently while searching for a book on Bookshop.org, I was interrupted by a popup apparently generated by Microsoft Edge advising me of an alternative... Excuse me?
The assumption that I need help buying a book is the biggest insult I've encountered on Windows since the days of Clippy.
A further insult is the implication that I make buying decisions based solely on price... I might prefer a retailer that focuses solely on books, or a retailer that is not a large chain. More generally, I might make a decision based on the company's carbon footprint, or perhaps their reputation in paying fair wages, or what political candidates and movements they support, or whether the CEO uses his wealth to launch himself into space.
Of course, these concepts are entirely beyond the scope of Edge's braindead algorithm that apparently knows only whether one number is larger than another.
In November Microsoft had described the upcoming popups announcing better prices as "a proactive price comparison experience that meets you where you shop. When you're shopping, Microsoft Edge will check prices at competing retailers to let you know if a lower price is available elsewhere..."
Promising there'd be even more shopping experiences coming, they'd added, "we'd love to hear what you think of them so far!"
The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Funny)
"How do you turn it off?"
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Informative)
"How do you turn it off?"
go to edge://settings/privacy and look for “Save time and money with Shopping in Microsoft Edge”.
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Informative)
"How do you turn it off?"
go to edge://settings/privacy and look for “Save time and money with Shopping in Microsoft Edge”.
Better: https://www.techradar.com/how-... [techradar.com] How to remove Microsoft Edge from Windows 10
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"How do you turn it off?"
go to edge://settings/privacy and look for “Save time and money with Shopping in Microsoft Edge”.
Better: https://www.techradar.com/how-... [techradar.com] How to remove Microsoft Edge from Windows 10
Better: https://spins.fedoraproject.org/xfce/download/index.html [fedoraproject.org]
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Funny)
"How do you turn it off?"
go to edge://settings/privacy and look for “Save time and money with Shopping in Microsoft Edge”.
Better:https://www.techradar.com/how-... [techradar.com] How to remove Microsoft Edge from Windows 10
Better: https://spins.fedoraproject.org/xfce/download/index.html [fedoraproject.org]
Better: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=amiga+&_sacat=162075&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=amiga+system&_osacat=162075 [ebay.com]
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Interesting)
I have found Ubuntu to be much more easy to use than Fedora. Especially if gaming is involved. Fedora's updates frequently broke things and required me to hit forums and muck around in the command line to fix, whereas things have gone much more smoothly with Ubuntu.
Also, Ubuntu keeps politics out of its decisions, unlike Red Hat, for what that's worth.
Re: The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:3)
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Informative)
"How do you turn it off?"
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/new/ [mozilla.org]
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"How do you turn it off?"
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/new/ [mozilla.org]
Ten minutes too late. Came here to say the same thing. Use a different browser.
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Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Interesting)
"How do you turn it off?"
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/new/ [mozilla.org]
Alas, no.
Windows ignores your default browser settings when it wants to push Edge.
In fact, it popped up Edge (which isn't my default browser) to try and push Windows 11 (which isn't available yet, and won't even run on my laptop anyway.)
Fuck Microsoft!
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Informative)
This is generally true. When MS wants to push something related to the system, it uses Edge regardless of your settings. If you search for anything from the start menu, it always uses Edge and Bing regardless of your other settings. However, more often than not, it *does* respect a default setting for Firefox. So using FF "mostly" works as an Edge replacement.
Unfortunately, a rapidly growing number of sites, especially places like Lowes or some financial institutions, are now blocking access from Firefox. They require Chrome or something derived from it (Edge works). That's led to my making complaints to such organizations, occasionally with some improvement, but at Lowes no dice so I don't buy there any more. Home Depot, unfortunately, started glitching the same way this morning, but eventually cleaned up so I don't have to avoid them yet (at least for that reason).
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Interesting)
Firefox works just fine with Lowe's. I confirmed it just now. Why the disinformation?
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To be fair, sometimes things change quickly. For a while -- at least a few weeks -- Pintrest was totally broken in Firefox, showing only a blank screen. They eventually fixed it, but I was quite surprised how long it took to fix their site with such a popular browser.
Don't even get me started on alternative browsers.
Re: The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:2)
A user agent switching extention is your friend. Of course, YMMV, but it generally works well for me when a site decides to tell me to fuck off because it thinks I am not using the browser they believe it is "best viewed with", or sometines the browser-site taiioring on their end temporarly bugs out.
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I was quite surprised how long it took to fix their site with such a popular browser.
The problem is that Firefox isn't a popular browser, it's an also-ran, and becoming more so with every new release. You also need to look at the demographics of who's still left sticking with Firefox through to the bitter end, we're not exactly the target market for most commercial web sites, so breaking compatibility with a sliding-into-irrelevance browser used by a mostly non-target market won't be losing them any sleep. I keep a copy of Chrome (shudder) around for all the sites that don't work properly
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Because it's whack'a'mole at this point. Many sites no longer test their implementations on Firefox any more. That means that when something specific breaks, you're either at the mercy of site's designers to get enough complaints to care to fire up Firefox, type in the broken address, figure out what's wrong and fix it, or Mozilla to actually patch Firefox to fix whatever it is that's broken.
Which is why Firefox has become the new "novelty browser". It works fine most of the time. It bugs out sometimes. And
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Insightful)
Our poster may have been missing a Firefox index, or had a malformed cookie. Simply because software works on _your_ laptop does not mean it works for everyone: that is a hard-won lesson.
Re: The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:3)
Re: The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:2)
Edge? I always had the assumption that it's just another crap pack-in program that I always replace with a far superior verson written by a third partly. Edge rarely gets loaded up on my machine and most of those times it's by accident.
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple, use firefox
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Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Interesting)
I stopped taking Edge seriously when I realized I couldn't customize the home page of a new tab (only for a new browser instance). I was on a new work computer, and both Edge and Chrome were installed, so I thought I'd give it a shot. After a few days, I got too frustrated and installed Firefox.
Microsoft appears far too focused on directing users in the way they want them to, rather than giving them a useful platform to do what the users actually want. "No, no, you don't want to use Google Search. Here, Bing is just as good (no, it's not). Hey, why would you want to customize the page that opens for a new tab? Here's a bunch of irrelevant shit that looks pretty. That's fine, right?"
That's pretty much how you prevent a browser from succeeding.
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Funny)
The address of their headquarters is One Microsoft Way. Any further questions?
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Wait, you can now uninstall something that comes bundled with a Microsoft OS?
(honest question, I rarely use them if I don't have to)
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Insightful)
"How do you turn it off?"
And 2nd question: "How do I make sure it stays off?"
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
If you are using Edge, you are too stupid to be using a computer. Even Internet Explorer is less shitty.
This is exactly right! Have people learned nothing from Microsoft browsers? Finally they kill off Internet Explorer forcing users to move to an alternative and those users move to Microsoft Edge...wtf?!
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MS does run most Chrome extensions, in particular several adblockers, Privacy Badger, and DDG. How long this will work is of course open to question. And NoScript is nowhere to be found.
Re: The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:2)
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Interesting)
Literally on the popup it has an option that says "don't show this again"
Until Microsoft decides to show it again by restoring the default settings [slashdot.org] through an update or forces the feature onto users [slashdot.org] with no way to disable it.
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That's practically last week!
Sure. If you consider that last month I installed windows from floppy discs.
"Please don't fire the gun in my face Microsoft." Oh, we only did that once five years ago.
Yep nothing changes in 5 years. Certainly not a fundamental shift in Windows strategy, a complete shakeup of leadership, the entire Windows department being merged with hardware.
The only thing dumber than not remembering what happened in the past, is assuming that the past is forever fixed.
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Informative)
HEY, wake up, you missed the bit where they are actively spying on your activities, like they OWN YOU. What is wrong with you, hey dog, roll over, go fetch boy, are you a good boy, 'pats head'. They are using the software to actively spy on your activities and do what ever they hell they care to with it.
Wake up, by that activity, they own you, it is abhorrent, the invasion of your private digital space, which according to M$ you are not entitled to, they own you boy, good dog you, your in their kennel now, go fetch boy, go on, and take your wallet with you, good boy, "pats head".
Seriously what does it take to point out what should have been obvious. How bad this truly is from a product you paid for, that you are meant to own and control not that is meant to own and control you. The gross arrogant invasion of the private space, does not offend you, the spying and monitoring, they are actively monitoring all your internet activity, WAKE UP.
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PS If you fools let them get away with this, how much more will you let them get away with, seriously.
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Informative)
This is something that *can* be controlled. Careful perusal, repeated after updates, of privacy and other options is necessary as a maintenance practice. Of course, that's also necessary with Android phones - perhaps even more so there. There are a few off-brand things that give you more granular control over things, such as W10Privacy [w10privacy.de]. On the whole, if you spend a little time understanding the options and what Win10 is actually doing, it can be regulated to being little worse than Win7 was by default. Note the comparison: regulated Win10 vs default Win7.
Re: The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:2)
Re: The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:3)
Too bad it isn't just limited to M$. Nearly the entire mainstream industry is now about taking control out of the hands of users and putting it into the hands of corporation.
Give it about 10 years. We will be back to dumb terminals, everything is on the "cloud" (mainframe), and you loose access to all your (really their) files if you do as much as commit heresy against the popular political narritave of the time.
The nightmare is only beginning.
Re:The usual "Microsoft feature" question (Score:5, Insightful)
you're required to click through an onerous legal agreement
These are not agreements but impositions. The user does not have a choice if they want to run the software (eg edge). I am reasonably happy with a license that says things like: must respect copyright of the code, etc; but they impose conditions completely unrelated, eg: we can use your CPU, network bandwidth, exploit your privacy all to enrich us (the software vendor).
The problem is a huge imbalance of power: corporations riding rough shod over the interests of their customers and laughing all the way to the bank. Most users cannot/will not do anything about it, many are not really aware of the problem or that there is a choice but just accept it. This is one of the big arguments for the use of open source, but even then there is exploitation.
Another privacy invasion (Score:5, Insightful)
So, does this mean that MS is sending full details of every page you visit back to a MS server so as they can get this invasive adware to work?
If MS want Edge users to flee in droves then this is a good way to go.
Re:Another privacy invasion (Score:5, Insightful)
People don't seem to run away from spyware, for whatever reason. They shrug and carry on. We can't even get most people to install ad block.
Re:Another privacy invasion (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, advertising companies accomplished that feat with the level of obnoxiousness their ads reached.
I do know of people who are ok with closing 10+ error messages every time they start their computer, they put up with a browser real estate of 5 square inches because the rest is clogged with browser bars and other bullshit, they accept boot times that border on 5 minutes from SSDs because of all the crap that loads when they start their system, but even these people are fed up enough with browser ads that they installed adblockers.
Re: Another privacy invasion (Score:2)
Re: Another privacy invasion (Score:2)
Suzy Q. just wants to spread rumors on her Facebook page how Janet is sleeping around with a bunch of men. Suzy couldn't give a rats ass about M$, or Apple, or any other company spying on her.
And the Suzy crowd is bigger and has more clout than the geeks do.
Get Suzy to care about privacy (real privacy, not just buying into the current privacy theater conducted by the worst violators of them all), and you will see change.
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Modern day fiction is written from the paranoid engineer perspective which why it's so Rube Goldberg in it's execution. Coincidentally modern software design was taken from the same pool of paranoids.
Re: Another privacy invasion (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, every Suzy, Jane, Harry, and Joe will just "go and install Linux".
Except none of those people want to spend the time to replace tbe Windows that just works for them with an entirely new OS. Privacy invasion and abuse? They will happily put up with that, unless it gets REALLY REALLY bad for them (I don't think there is really is a limit anymore with this).
It's all about incentive, and the reason Linux didn't take over the desktop is because most computer users treat a computer as just another appliance, and there is no incentive for them to switch. They don't care about the idealism surrounding Linux either.
Windows Phone would've been the #1 (or #2) smartphone OS had M$ not made the poor buisness descisions that allowed Android to eat their lunch in that market
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Naw, a lot of them will just go buy Chromebooks.
"To get away from spyware?" you say.
No, they don't care about spyware. ChromeOS just gives the most appliance-like experience.
Poser. (Score:5, Funny)
I was hating on Microsoft Edge before it was cool...
Re:Poser. (Score:4, Insightful)
Dude, I have no idea who you are, but calling Charles Petzold a "poser" is likely a way to look ... well, not too smart. This guy likely already forgot more about Windows than you'll ever know.
Re:Poser. (Score:5, Funny)
Lucky bastards, I wish I could forget about windows completely.
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I know... been using Linux for many years and I still can't forget all the hassles and crap windows brought into my life.
No love lost there.
Re: Poser. (Score:2)
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I can watch HDR movies on my goddamn *phone* with an OS that is *based* on linux... ... but HDR on linux is nowhere to be seen.
Last time I mentioned this, the response was along the lines of "use a TV like a normal person"
Right. I have a machine that is capable of AUTHORING those kinds of movies but the global coder community that progresses linux can't get its shit together so his solution is to... buy a TV? Was he insane?
Every time I retry linux, I get severely disappointed.
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How else are you supposed to look outside from inside your house?
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Data or C3PO?
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Lucky bastards, I wish I could forget about windows completely.
Your joke is actually insightful. If everyone here hates Microsoft as much a they claim, why do they care if a Microsoft legend is unhappy with Edge?
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Because all too frequently people still get stuck working with Windows.
Re: Poser. (Score:2)
There is no Fruede
like Schadenfreude.
Re:Poser. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Poser. (Score:5, Insightful)
I just checked my bookshelf, and I still have a copy of Petzold's "Programming Windows" book from the late 80s.
Looking inside, I realized that I had forgotten just how hard it was to program anything in the 8086 segmented memory model of the pre-Win32 era: Near and far pointers. Moveable segments in real mode. Declaring "windows classes". Manually allocating and freeing every item used in the API. Huge amounts of boilerplate to define every trivial "resource" in a program. Having to write more boilerplate to manually help out the lame object code linkers. It takes the first 44 pages just to get a "Hello World" message box on the screen.
Nowadays, to achieve that, all I have to do is type Shift+Ctrl+I and then type "alert('Hello World!')".
alert() will break (Score:5, Funny)
Nowadays, to achieve that, all I have to do is type Shift+Ctrl+I and then type "alert('Hello World!')".
Until Edge and other Chromium browsers break alert() [slashdot.org].
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Well, Peter sure liked to pose in that pink shirt.
(before you mod this as troll, google it.)
Re:Poser. (Score:4, Insightful)
It was a joke. Stand down.
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The humor-deficit is strong in some Slashdotters, young padwan.
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This doesn't even work as a joke. The joke is that probably rather that even Petzold is annoyed by being surprised by Windows "features" he never asked for and doesn't know how to get rid of.
I mean, if he doesn't know how to get rid of that junk, we're screwed.
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How do you become knowledgeable about something without actually using it?
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I thought the funny part was 'before it was cool' but I guess Mr. Petzold and Edge have many fans here...
Looking at the replies to "Poser." (Score:5, Interesting)
One of the big things I like about Slashdot is that you really do get all kinds here and most of the time they bring in unique and refreshing perspectives. Other times, they let their prejudices come through loud and clear.
This is one of those times when I'm sure the OP knows who Petzold is (I literally wore out his "Programming Windows" 2nd edition and "Programming OS/2 Presentation Manager" books as they were the best references on the subjects that I've ever had). Unfortunately I find that as a group, the Microsoft "boosters" (really "fan bois") often can't see the humour in posts that may come across as negative about Microsoft.
I'm sure if Charles Petzold were to see the original post calling him a "Poser", I'm sure he'd get a good chuckle out of it.
Re: Poser. (Score:2)
I don't hate Edge, I just don't use it because it's just another inferior program that most experienced users just end up replacing anyway.
The vast majority of Edge users are the same type of people who signed up with AOL because it came preinstalled on their computer.
W.O.W. (Score:3)
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This is (almost) into "Andy Hertzfeld says Apple can go fuck themselves" territory.
And the world handed Andy Hertzfeld and Google+ a hearty fuck you in return.
I don't understand (Score:2)
This is (almost) into "Andy Hertzfeld says Apple can go fuck themselves" territory.
The Slashdot old timers have repeatedly assured me Microsoft has not changed since the three E's [wikipedia.org] days. Shouldn't I celebrate that a Windows bigshot from back then is upset with current Microsoft?
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I think this is worse. Petzold quite literally wrote the book on "how to code for Windows". I think there aren't many people outside of Microsoft, and I would even dare say there aren't many inside, that know more about coding for that OS than he does.
Him pretty much saying "fuck that shit" is like a Rabbi saying that the whole shebang about kosher food is getting absurd.
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Answered (Score:3)
>"we'd love to hear what you think of them so far!"
I guess you got your answer.
Now let's see if he installs Firefox.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Pretty thin-skinned for a Microsoft professional (Score:5, Interesting)
The guy is 68. He's been around the block. Surely he's seen advertisement going from crazy stupid to crazy stupid and invasive in his lifetime.
And he stuck with Microsoft and Windows for decades, particularly at a time when Microsoft couldn't code anything secure or stable if their lives depended on it. It's not like he doesn't know how stupid Microsoft can be.
Yet he's complaining about being insulted by a single ad in a single Microsof product that suggests an alternative retailer, explaining in exquisite details why it's patronizing? Really? Has he been asleep all those years?
I don't know... Ads insult me like that and worse 10 times a minutes when I'm online, or when I turn on TV, or when I hit the road and pass billboards. I'm pretty much desensitized at this point: stupid, invasive ads are like the piles: they itch like crazy but there ain't much you can do about them.
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The point is that a web browser from Microsoft is doing the advertising.
Would you like your car's stereo system to tell you about daily specials when you drive near a fast food place?
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The point is that a web browser from Microsoft is doing the advertising.
Yes, and my point is that Microsoft isn't new to this [theverge.com].
The guy seems to be discovering in total astonishment that Microsoft embeds ads in their products. I could understand his surprise if he was a long time Mac user who'd been living under a very large rock for a long time. But he was deeply involved in all things Microsoft for a long time. He of all people should know how rotten and hopeless Microsoft is.
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The last Windows version I used was Windows XP, I switched to Mac right before their move to Intel CPUs. I'm appalled to learn that Microsoft has sunk so low.
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And now that Apple seems to think they're going to be scanning stuff on your system, like it or not?
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The point is that a web browser from Microsoft is doing the advertising.
Would you like your car's stereo system to tell you about daily specials when you drive near a fast food place?
If you read TFS/TFA he was not angry that the web browser made a recommendation, he was insulted that it suggested he shop based on price alone.
my choices (Score:2)
I can't wait ... (Score:5, Funny)
"Perhaps you would be interested in Christianity instead."
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That would be Google Chrome. Microsoft has not had a do no evil policy so it would be more along the lines of
"Can we interest you in the good word of Beelzebub"
"We noticed you're trying to buy a bible, goat's blood is cheaper at Walmart"
"Experience" (Score:3)
Everytime Microsoft does something colossally stupid they generally say "we're trying to improve the experience". Maybe I've got cause and effect backwards, but I think Microsoft's problem is worrying too much about the "experience" and not enough about the "let's be useful".
There is an underappreciated facet to privacy: (Score:5, Insightful)
the right to be able to control and direct your attention where you want it. That is why your neighbor cranking up his music so you can't hear yourself think is illegal in most places.
We're all worried about the things big tech companies know or can infer about you that you don't want public. And we're right to be. But big tech doesn't really care about the embarrassing details of your private life, but they *do* very much care about where your eyeballs are pointed, and they are using their control of their platforms to every so slowly undermine your expectation that you can direct your eyeballs where you want.
This is, by the way, why so many on-line services like iTunes suck; they aren't interested in catering to your preferences, they want to shape it. The company that shapes the public's attention has the keys to shaping the public's preferences.
Easy, free solution (Score:2)
Re:Easy, free solution (Score:5, Informative)
If Linux had drivers to support my multichannel audio hardware, or for that matter any world class DAW available that supported VST plugins, I might consider it. As it is, the Windows application and driver ecosystem is what keeps me there.
Similar feelings with the win10 lock screen (Score:2)
"Do you want to know what Microsoft is doing to keep XXXX". No, get lost, it's a lock screen, not free real-estate to dump ads.
Slowskys commercial (Score:2)
He wants to go back to IE? WTF is this dude's problem? He reminds me of the Slowskys commercials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Clippy Says (Score:2)
"It looks like you're trying to write a polemic!"
One word too many (Score:2, Flamebait)
"Screw you, Microsoft Edge"
That should have been simply "Screw you, Microsoft". Don't blame the product - blame the company that forced it on you. Better yet, abandon the company that forced it on you - switch to Linux. In the meantime - any regrets about having evangelized for what even back then was obviously a predatory, parasitic blood-sucking corporation? I certainly hope so.
Because the web doesn't have enough ada already (Score:3)
He's right that book buying criteria can vary (Score:3)
He's right that book buying criteria can vary, for instance I use my old copy of "Programming windows 3.1 by Charles Pelzoid" as a monitor stand so that I can see my second screen over my laptop. In this case my criteria were having a very very thick book, one that I would probably never read again.
Re:Not a smart fella is he? (Score:5, Insightful)
You are wrong and ignorant. The man was surprised by an unknown feature that has already invaded his privacy and made his system engage in unwanted behavior. Being able to stop a hidden invasive act after the fact is not a solution at all, there is bigger problem there. What other unknown things is Microsoft's wares doing?