Should Baseball Teams Use Technology to Stop Sign-Stealing? (nytimes.com) 85
Professional baseball has a dirty secret, according to the New York Times. While a catcher may secretly signal for certain pitches using their fingers, "Multiple managers say there are clubs who use a dozen or more staff members to study video and swipe signs."
But should that practice be stopped with technology? Adding cameras in every ballpark and video monitors in every clubhouse opened the door to an unintended consequence: electronic cheating. The 2017 Houston Astros brazenly stepped through that door, developing an elaborate sign-stealing system that helped them win a World Series. Two years later, when that system was revealed to the public, it resulted in firings, suspensions and, ultimately, the permanent tarnishing of a championship.... This season, Major League Baseball took a big leap forward in distancing itself from the stain of sign stealing with the introduction of PitchCom, a device controlled by a catcher that allows him to wordlessly communicate with the pitcher about what pitch is coming — information that is simultaneously shared with as many as three other players on the field through earpieces in the bands of their caps....
There have been a few hiccups, with devices not operating, or pitchers not being able to hear, but so far this season, everyone in baseball seems to agree that PitchCom, like it or not, is working. Carlos Correa, a shortstop for the Minnesota Twins who has long served as the unofficial, and unapologetic, spokesman of those 2017 Astros, went as far as saying that the tool would have foiled his old team's systemic cheating. "I think so," Correa said. "Because there are no signs now."
Yet not all pitchers are on board. Max Scherzer, the ace of the New York Mets and baseball's highest-paid player this season, sampled PitchCom for the first time late last month in a game against the Yankees and emerged with conflicting thoughts. "It works," he said. "Does it help? Yes. But I also think it should be illegal."
Scherzer went so far as to suggest that the game would be losing something by eliminating sign stealing.
"It's part of baseball, trying to crack someone's signs," Scherzer said. "Does it have its desired intent that it cleans up the game a little bit?" he said of PitchCom. "Yes. But I also feel like it takes away part of the game."
That comment was called "a little naive" and "a bit hypocritical" by a relief pitcher in Seattle, who also had this to say about Scherzer. "I have a very good feeling that he's been on a team or two that steals signs."
For now, electronic pitch-signalling remains optional — and yet has been adopted by every one of the 30 teams in Major League Baseball, the article points out (attributing this to "a leaguewide paranoia".) And the League's executive vice president for baseball operations points out a second advantage.
Since catchers don't need to run through a long series of decoy signals, "It has actually sped the game up a little bit."
But should that practice be stopped with technology? Adding cameras in every ballpark and video monitors in every clubhouse opened the door to an unintended consequence: electronic cheating. The 2017 Houston Astros brazenly stepped through that door, developing an elaborate sign-stealing system that helped them win a World Series. Two years later, when that system was revealed to the public, it resulted in firings, suspensions and, ultimately, the permanent tarnishing of a championship.... This season, Major League Baseball took a big leap forward in distancing itself from the stain of sign stealing with the introduction of PitchCom, a device controlled by a catcher that allows him to wordlessly communicate with the pitcher about what pitch is coming — information that is simultaneously shared with as many as three other players on the field through earpieces in the bands of their caps....
There have been a few hiccups, with devices not operating, or pitchers not being able to hear, but so far this season, everyone in baseball seems to agree that PitchCom, like it or not, is working. Carlos Correa, a shortstop for the Minnesota Twins who has long served as the unofficial, and unapologetic, spokesman of those 2017 Astros, went as far as saying that the tool would have foiled his old team's systemic cheating. "I think so," Correa said. "Because there are no signs now."
Yet not all pitchers are on board. Max Scherzer, the ace of the New York Mets and baseball's highest-paid player this season, sampled PitchCom for the first time late last month in a game against the Yankees and emerged with conflicting thoughts. "It works," he said. "Does it help? Yes. But I also think it should be illegal."
Scherzer went so far as to suggest that the game would be losing something by eliminating sign stealing.
"It's part of baseball, trying to crack someone's signs," Scherzer said. "Does it have its desired intent that it cleans up the game a little bit?" he said of PitchCom. "Yes. But I also feel like it takes away part of the game."
That comment was called "a little naive" and "a bit hypocritical" by a relief pitcher in Seattle, who also had this to say about Scherzer. "I have a very good feeling that he's been on a team or two that steals signs."
For now, electronic pitch-signalling remains optional — and yet has been adopted by every one of the 30 teams in Major League Baseball, the article points out (attributing this to "a leaguewide paranoia".) And the League's executive vice president for baseball operations points out a second advantage.
Since catchers don't need to run through a long series of decoy signals, "It has actually sped the game up a little bit."
How about just allow it? (Score:2, Insightful)
In the end, baseball hinges on whether the batter can hit the ball. The pitcher hopes to confuse the batter to try to make him miss. So be it, let the pitcher try. But why does it have to be a "right" for the pitcher's specific pitch to be kept a secret from the batter? If ALL the batters can try to find out, with help from their teammates, which pitch is coming, then the "playing field" is level, and the game is still fair.
I'd like to see the game be about raw skill, not so much about trickery and deceptio
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What specifically should be allowed: sign-stealing, or technology that stops it?
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Well, honestly, it's an arm's race, isn't it? Technology allows sign stealing like never before, yet signs are still attempted with camouflage in present day games. How long before we have catcher/pitcher radio communication, and then the folks attempting to steal signs will implement Stingray-like technology to best it?
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How long before we have catcher/pitcher radio communication?
According to the above summary ... now.
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Seems it shouldn't be that hard to have to have simple encryption.
For example, pitcher and catcher have a phrase or sentence memorised, and they shift their (numeric) signals with the value of each successive letter for each pitch.
With a small amount of practice it should be possible to get quick and accurate at doing that, and just changing the sentence changes the code.
I'm not that familiar with baseball, but from what I know there's 15 pitches per inning and about 100 pitches per game right? So you only
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And this has to change for every game.
You are greatly over-assuming what an average pitcher can be expected to memorize and keep track of without any written aid. In the past people used code books, code wheels and the like to keep track of this sort of thing and didn't have to do it under the pressure of public performance in real time.
Recall also that pitchers are chosen for their ability to throw balls, not for their mental agility (though of course some basic requirement there is necessary).
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It's a part of the game. They should ban any tech that would prevent it.
Why do they do it anyway? Can't the catcher just catch it without them?
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No. Youtube pitchers crossing up the catcher. It's especially important with a man on base.
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Well, honestly, it's an arm's race, isn't it? Technology allows sign stealing like never before, yet signs are still attempted with camouflage in present day games. How long before we have catcher/pitcher radio communication, and then the folks attempting to steal signs will implement Stingray-like technology to best it?
It's not really though, we could go right back to allowing the catcher to walk up to the mound as often as he wants if you don't do anything about cheating. They are supposed to be able to communicate, but we want a faster game. Sign stealing is tolerated because there isn't anything you can do about it. Pitchers and catchers are actually using radio communication right now, to stop sign stealing.
I don't know what encryption system their devices use, but encryption between two devices that are in your po
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If you're going to rely on trickery to win then the opposition should also be allowed to use trickery to counter your trickery. Whining about sign-stealing is like a conman whining about being caught in a police sting, "it's so unfair to spoil my con by conning me!".
You're arguing that games should not have secrets. I don't know where to begin with how poorly thought out that is.
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I'd like to see the game be about raw skill, not so much about trickery and deception.
All games are about trickery and deception.
You try to predict what the other person is going to do, and you try to make it hard for the other person to predict what you're going to do.
You try to stuff their plans while making your own.
If you want sports about raw skill, then there's only the race-type sports or the throwing-type sports. The boring kinds.
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There certainly is a class of games and sports that are about trickery and deception, but by no means all.
Some example:
- Bowling
- Track and field
- Rowing
- Drag racing
- Golf
- Rodeo
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If you want sports about raw skill, then there's only the race-type sports or the throwing-type sports. The boring kinds.
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Even for racing/throwing there are ways to be sneaky. For instance, you could move your unborn child's SRY gene [wikipedia.org] to an X chromosome so that they can sneak through a genetic test with an XX pair.
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- Rodeo
In rodeo, the riders don't trick each other, but the best bulls and broncos will feint with their head in one direction while bucking in a different direction.
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Yes, and the rider is free to use whatever sorts of analysis they want, to try to figure out how the bull will act.
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It's simple: in baseball, the batter is an INDIVIDUAL at the plate and a team member in the field. This is one of the things that makes baseball unique in American sports. Allowing the team to assist the batter in his task while at the plate breaks that model and its no longer classical baseball. This is why Houston is still disparaged by many in the game, to this day. They field a good team but really screwed up by breaking one of the morals of the game: the batter STANDS ALONE IN THE BOX. If you've ever p
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Good explanation, thanks.
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It's simple: in baseball, the batter is an INDIVIDUAL at the plate and a team member in the field. This is one of the things that makes baseball unique in American sports. Allowing the team to assist the batter in his task while at the plate breaks that model and its no longer classical baseball.
Ty Cobb (among others I'm sure) felt that once he got on base, it was his job to help his batting teammates, by distracting and even destroying the confidence of the opposing pitcher and catcher by "waging war on the base path."
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A good attempt at a counter-argument but still not quite right. Who was Ty trying to influence? The pitcher or the batter? This is why pitchers learn to pitch "from the stretch" and batters focus on what comes out of the pitcher's hand.
Ty was a bit of a hot head and would fight pretty much anyone, anywhere but from all accounts respected the morals of "The Game".. Have a deeper read into his biography. Even the slovenly Babe Ruth got under his skin for a time as someone who didn't play the game as it shoul
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Have a deeper read into his biography.
I got a laugh out of this. Not that you could have known, of course, but I've read his autobiography (My Life in Baseball: The True Record) numerous times and I've visited the Ty Cobb museum multiple times. One visit was for the purpose of meeting Charles Leerhsen, the author of Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty. I think I have read as deeply about Ty Cobb as nearly anyone ever could.
You're trying to move the goal posts (maybe "move the batter's box" would be a better analogy), by claiming that your original
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Sure, that's fine, but it's not like a law of physics that is unbreakable. If the league decides that "sign-stealing" is OK, then it's no longer a violation of the rules to try to do it, and the game of baseball is not lost.
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It's a meta-game
Oh I've seen that one before. "The game let's me do, it so it's not cheating"
"Meta" can be a lot of things, but with that reasoning it often describes cheating that can't be stopped, so we roll with it.
Every crazy meta doesn't need to be accepted in a game. Vaya con Dios sign stealing. It wasn't supposed to be there anyway and didn't add value to the game.
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well, it isn't just the batter (the communication between, say, the 1st or 3rd base coach who can see the sign and the batter is itself a sign that can be cracked). But it is also the runners, who out of experience can known, based on the pitch and the batter's usual reaction to that pitch, to have an idea if it is safe to lead off for a steal.
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And I say, so what? If everybody is allowed to try to "steal" signs, then the playing field is still level. If you don't want your signs stolen, make them harder to decipher! That's what they do in football, for example. Everybody can hear the quarterback's "signs" because they are audible. They just "encrypt" them so that only teammates can decipher them.
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And for a long time this was reasonable and how things worked but modern combination of cameras and pattern recogintion "AI" means decrypting is just too easy. There is no way you can encrypt something good enough for your teammates to be able to actually decrypt it and while also not being easy for a computer to decrypt.
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Oh right, AI. I forgot about all-knowing AI.
And I say, stop relying so much on secrecy. Just be the best at what you do.
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Oh right, AI. I forgot about all-knowing AI.
And I say, stop relying so much on secrecy. Just be the best at what you do.
L2baseball, the game involves secret plays, like so many games do. That's just how it works.
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So keep it secret then, fine. Just don't make it illegal to try to discover the secret! Those are two sides of the same coin.
It's Worse than That (Score:2)
But why does it have to be a "right" for the pitcher's specific pitch to be kept a secret from the batter?
It's worse than that: they want to broadcast their strategy across the pitch and not allow the other team the chance to figure out what they are saying. If you want to keep your strategy secret then don't broadcast it, if you broadcast it then it is only fair the other team are allowed to use their brains to work out what you are saying.
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But why does it have to be a "right" for the pitcher's specific pitch to be kept a secret from the batter?
It's worse than that: they want to broadcast their strategy across the pitch and not allow the other team the chance to figure out what they are saying. If you want to keep your strategy secret then don't broadcast it, if you broadcast it then it is only fair the other team are allowed to use their brains to work out what you are saying.
They could huddle on the pitcher's mound every play, that what you're asking for because you don't want to deal with technology disrupting the game, slow it to a crawl? Pitcher/catcher communication doesn't change how the game works, the catcher could always approach the mound, hand signals speed the game up, radio speeds it up more, and it's the same game, that's a good use of technology that preserves the spirit of the game and improves it.
Stealing hand signs was a meta that didn't add value to the game
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But why does it have to be a "right" for the pitcher's specific pitch to be kept a secret from the batter?
Because that's how baseball works. Jesus some of these posts are cringey, it's the same shit we see in video games - "I can get away with it, so why's it cheating?" Sometimes that bullshit gets a wink and nod from the powers that be and it turns into another fucked up meta-game for the insiders to cream the underdogs, and im sick of it.
Back to meatspace, the batter not knowing what pitch is coming is part of the game. If hand signs cannot be trusted at all, the catcher would walk up to the mound every pi
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OK, so the argument is, that's the way it's always been, so that's the way it always has to be. OK, whatever.
Personally, I think the game could use an advantage to the offense. To many of us, baseball games are long and boring. Making it easier for batters to score would be a welcome change, and might actually draw in more fans. But of course, you're a purist, so drawing in more fans wouldn't be a motivation from your point of view.
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You do realize that there is no clock in baseball hence all other things being equal higher scoring means longer games? They are already, on average, more than three hours long in the MLB; four-hour long games would draw in more fans, you think?
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It's not about the overall length of the game, as it is the percentage of time when action is happening.
In any case, many games stretch into multiple extra innings because there is NO scoring. Making it easier to score, would help reduce the likelihood of that scenario.
Dumb (Score:5, Interesting)
The concept that there is anything wrong with Team A figuring out what play Team B is calling is DUMB!
They use signs to obscure what they're doing. OF COURSE the other team is going to try to figure it out. Duh!!! There should be nothing considered "wrong" with that. Teams just need to come up with better signs, or a better strategy for using them.
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Bingo!
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The concept that there is anything wrong with Team A figuring out what play Team B is calling is DUMB!
They use signs to obscure what they're doing. OF COURSE the other team is going to try to figure it out. Duh!!! There should be nothing considered "wrong" with that. Teams just need to come up with better signs, or a better strategy for using them.
Exactly. Sign stealing is as old as sports, football does it as well. The flip side is if you change up the pattern in game or game to game the other team will steal the wrong signs and confuse their batters. Watch how the batter looks right before a pitch to see which coach is signaling him. Learn what each signal means relative to the called pitch. Use that to know when to change the pattern or simply randomly do so. A pitcher could remember in inning 2 the third sign is the correct one, if he waves it
"Elaborate sign-stealing system" (Score:2)
They would bang a trash can from the clubhouse hallway when they knew a fastball was coming.
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Why can't the pitcher alone decide what to throw? (Score:2)
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Because the catcher has to know what to catch, otherwise he'll get hit in the face or worse, drop the ball.
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Re:Why can't the pitcher alone decide what to thro (Score:4, Insightful)
For fast bowlers, they often aim at cracks on the pitch, so there's no way to signal which way the ball's going to bounce anyway. But the bowlers are mostly aiming at the same spots and same side, so any non-hit or miss hit is highly predictable.
Also with fast bowlers, the wicket keeper and the slips are standing quite far back, so they have plenty of time to react.
With spin bowlers, likewise, they tend to bowl the stock delivery 90% of the time, aiming for cracks and rough patches in the same spots and on the same side. Spin bowlers rarely change the lateral direction of spin, and they bowl to a plan, so it's easy to set up a field that reduces missed catches.
Wicket keepers, like the batsmen, also watches the ball as it comes out of the bowlers hand, but because of the above factors, it's not so important.
Then, of course, in cricket, unlike baseball, you can change field placements. The captain, wicket keeper and bowler discusses changes in plan on the field, and set the field placements accordingly, sometimes after just one bowl. eg, if they know a batsmen likes to hit hook shots, then they'll set up a field where the bowler will tempt the hook shot every now and then to try to force a mishit.
All this is apparent to the batsmen, but it still gets them out, because cricket is a longer game and statistics play out eventually.
Then there's also the art of sledging. The fielding side taunts the batsmen, sometimes even to the point of going on and on about their particular weakness and how they'll target it. The batsmen can see that the field placing is set up for that exact eventuality and it plays on their mind, and then they get out in that exact way.
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Wow what an analysis.
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go watch Bull Durham. it is surprisingly accurate in this regard of whose job is what.
Drag it kicking and screaming.... (Score:1)
Welcome to the 21st Century boys. Took you long enough.
How long until this gets hacked? One season? Half? Any bets?
Talk about making a manual process easier with automation!
Everyone else here has it right - it's part of the 100+ year old game. And always will be....
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What happens when someone puts AI on the pitcher to track his mouth motion to detect when he is saying fastball vs curveball, etc?
Robots (Score:4, Funny)
Just have robots play baseball. Or better yet, just simulate the entire thing in software.
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They're working on that. Robotic umpires may be on their way.
https://www.theverge.com/2022/... [theverge.com]
If youâ(TM)re not cheating, youâ(TM)re n (Score:1)
And I wouldnâ(TM)t call it âoecheatingâ. These are hand signals that are broadcast to anyone to see. Someone isnâ(TM)t magically breaking the rules because they remember that 1 finger is fastball
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Sorry but... (Score:1)
Stateful signs. (Score:2)
A mental enigma machine.
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Are those analysts playing baseball, dumbass?
This is Slashdot (Score:3)
Hard to find sports fanbois here.
Hiding signs is so last century and needed to die. This goes for all these so-called sports. I thot it was funny when they started covering their lips for football. Crack the code on those Moto headsets, maybe. Oh, that might actually be against the law, but nearly impossible to prove, unless many false messages are sent and the enemy acts on false messages. Or, that could just be incompetence. Shit, pre-WWII. Pre-Enigma. When will multi-billion $ corps ever learn?
As someone suggested, if you need to transfer information, use radio and tooth taps, or change it so that every signal is deprecated once used. Jeez.
Why didn't they throw Rockets' win out? (Score:1)
They rewarded cheaters. If you punish cheaters, you don't need fancy gizmos.
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They rewarded cheaters. If you punish cheaters, you don't need fancy gizmos.
The Rockets are the basketball team. The Astros are the baseball team. Pretty silly to consider it cheating though.
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Sorry, Astros. I mixed up space-shit.
> Pretty silly to consider it cheating though.
They punished them for violating the rules. Rules are rules. Either embrace it by taking it out of the book or punish it.
Re: Its not a world series (Score:2)
MLB is played by two countries.
crypto (Score:2)
Make it legal or illegal (Score:2)
What baseball needs to do is take a side. Either leave signs totally mechanical and allow the full use of cameras and other means to steal signs or decide they don't want sign stealing and use encrypted communication.
This weird in between just begs for people to violate the rules about sign stealing because it's sorta legal but there are limitations on the use of mechanical devices to steal signs and where cameras can be positioned.
Personally, I'd prefer they left signs as totally mechanical and made sign
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Solutions! (Score:2)
1) Morse code using electrodes attached to the players' nut cups. They grab themselves enough it won't look unusual unless there is an all-caps feature.
2) remove all such communication from the game; and require decision time limits (speed up the game.)
3) end baseball. it sucks anyway.
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Sign stealing has always been part of the game. Don't wreck it. The truth is that most pitchers don't follow the signs anyway but every batter thinks he wants to know if it's going to be a curve or fastball or whatever. What the pitcher intends to throw and what comes off his fingers aren't always the same. Good batters judge the trajectory of the ball after its thrown, in the first five feet. Pitchers don't have the control we all think they have. Spoken by a former catcher.
Stupid (Score:2)
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Mnemonics and encryption? (Score:1)
Just wondering what mnemonics / sign language and encryption would look like at this level....?
Out of Curiosity (Score:2)
I don't follow sports, but do they regularly sweep locker rooms, bunkers, and team offices for bugs?
Is sports black ops a thing? Do they regularly employ operatives to steal playbooks and the like? If not there may be an untapped market here. Retired spooks could go into sports spy ops, set up a business that any team (and sports betters) could contract with.
Robots (Score:2)
Just replace the whole damn team with robots already.
Most fans and players should support this (Score:1)
it's part of the game.... (Score:1)